Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Formula One

Discussion about maps being used

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There is an ongoing discussion at Talk:2025 Formula One World Championship about types of map being used there. It would be good to get the views of some more regular F1 editors, as the outcome of any discussion there could affect other future season articles. Joseph2302 (talk) 15:07, 3 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Standardising all Formula One driver introductions

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Hi all,

I am currently standardising all F1 driver introductions to keep a fairly consistent format and opening paragraphs, drawing on any championships (per Lewis Hamilton, Max Verstappen and Fernando Alonso), karting (only FIA World/European Championships) and junior career successes (per Charles Leclerc, Andrea Kimi Antonelli and Nyck de Vries), and making F1 career run-downs more concise with better points of notability, as well as including career statistics and contract status at the end of the intro. Currently keeping the intros neutral but may consider including referenced statements such as "Widely regarded as one of the greatest drivers of all time/of his generation" for drivers such as Lewis Hamilton and Max Verstappen, per corresponding association football articles. Hopefully over time this sort of formatting will extend to other motorsport pages to keep all driver pages clean and concise.

Drivers completed:

Update: All 2024 drivers completed by 9 September 2024, currently working on drivers who competed up to 2015.

Mb2437 (talk) 21:28, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I would say as long as WP:LEAD is generally followed articles should naturally be fairly consistent, they don't all have to be identical in terms of structure, especially not when they are in varying states of quality with everything from GA's to articles that are in need of serious improvement. TylerBurden (talk) 20:03, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The structure of most introductions were an atrocious read prior to the changes made, not concisely breaking down careers with inconsistent detailing in many. Avoided major edits to Hamilton, Verstappen and Alonso, whose pages have been edited thousands of times to a fairly well-balanced form. Many other sports follow a similar structure on all pages. Mb2437 (talk) 20:46, 6 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure about links of the form [[Formula One drivers from Foo|Fooian racing driver]], as in the lead of Valtteri Bottas. It feels like a bit of an "Easter egg" link to me. DH85868993 (talk) 10:01, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think the link needs mentioning at some point in the intro, that way it does so without making an added point of the history of their nationality in the sport, which isn’t really notable with the exception of Zhou. I think it’s clear that clicking on “Finnish racing driver” leads to a list of successful Finnish racing drivers, rather than no link at all. Mb2437 (talk) 15:14, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Disagree on all counts. A prime example is Antonelli, his article links to Italian Formula One drivers - he isn't a Formula One driver yet. It is an WP:EGG link. And the simple solution is to put "Fooian [former] Formula One driver" and then linking to the article makes perfect sense. For retired drivers and current drivers it is appropriate because it is almost always the most notable series they raced in. The only issue would be for former F1, but still active racers. But then I don't think it is a necessary link in any case, so missing it isn't a big deal. Additionally, in (for example Verstappens article) we can write, "the most successful Dutch Formula One driver, Verstappen has 3 world championships" and link to it in that way. SSSB (talk) 15:30, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Could perhaps add "currently competing in Formula One under the Fooian flag for Team" for all, seen on multi-nationality driver pages, but doesn't feel as elegant or concise. The use of "Formula One driver" as opposed to "racing driver, currently [or formerly] competing in Formula One" restricts their racing career to solely Formula One. F1 career should always be mentioned in the lead paragraph, but all have competed elsewhere. Keeping the link isn't that deep really, but many readers will surely be curious to read on about their compatriots, hence why I think the inclusion is important. Mb2437 (talk) 15:56, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
"but many readers will surely be curious to read on about their compatriots," I'm not convinced that's true. When people go to (I don't know) Bottas' article, they want to read about Bottas. I would suggest that they would want to read about Finlands history in F1 is when the article talks about it (I.e. "Bottas is the most recent Finnish Grand Prix winner". This kind of sentence is more common at Grands Prix articles) SSSB (talk) 16:47, 7 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a bit uncomfortable with a "one size fits all" model for these articles, particularly if it's going to be rolled out across every F1 driver. It will suit some articles better than others, and I would be against changing articles which are already well-written. As a side point, there's a bit of overlinking here and there – coaching and management do not need to be linked, for example, and country names are never to be linked. I would also say that I personally don't think linking to a list of racing drivers of whatever nationality is useful. These drivers have practically nothing else in common. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:09, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I've predominantly been focusing on articles that are not well-written i.e. near enough every article besides the World Champions. The quality and lack of introductory detail made F1 articles far too difficult to navigate. Having a concise career rundown in the introduction should be the norm for F1 articles, a point which so many visit to get a grasp of.
Removed over-linking on the Jos Verstappen page (Netherlands, coached and managed) apart from the Netherlands A1 team, which needs a link there. As far as linking to a list of drivers from various nationalities, it has been the standard on F1 pages for a while, I've been adding it to pages who don't use it for consistency. Mb2437 (talk) 18:21, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Providing it is concise, yes. The introduction is basically to establish notability and give the basics in a nutshell. It probably doesn't mean that a driver's entire career be summarised, and shouldn't include anything that would fail to make him/her notable if that was the peak of what they achieved. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:34, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I feel as though notability has been followed fairly well on the introductions I've completed thus far; only including FIA Karting Championships, junior career championships/vice-championships, F1 career milestones (teams moved to, maiden wins/poles/podiums, championships), and other major series raced in full-time or won. Full F1 careers have generally been summarised in one paragraph, with two covering drivers with more extensive careers. Mb2437 (talk) 18:57, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have removed the second link in the lead paragraph of Jos Verstappen to the list of Dutch racing drivers – one is tolerable, but not two. There just seems like a lot of blue in some of these, which can be a bit distracting for some readers. Bretonbanquet (talk) 19:19, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
In the case of Jos Verstappen, we have "Dutch former racing driver" all as part of a link. Really, none of that needs linking as all are very common terms. I see we've even got "gearbox" and "bankruptcy" linked (gearbox linked in the lead and the next paragraph) – that's overkill. If we must link to a list of racing drivers from Country X, let's do it in the infobox. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:17, 14 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move at Talk:Andrea Kimi Antonelli#Requested move 3 September 2024

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There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Andrea Kimi Antonelli#Requested move 3 September 2024 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 17:03, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Failed verification in Template:F1 Drivers Standings

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@Cerebral726: I do not think it is the case to add failed verification here. Come on. Island92 (talk) 21:03, 11 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Is all the material contained in the table available in the source provided? Cerebral726 (talk) 14:02, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No, and there is no source that can provide all that. I have been cheking carefully. This is a system (and the respective Legend in the table) used on Wikipedia, only. Island92 (talk) 14:12, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
WP:V. Then add more sources? It's a complex table, multiple sources is entirely reasonable. If your "system" involves unsourced material on Wikipedia, then it needs to be fixed. Cerebral726 (talk) 14:16, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
More sources? How many? Ten? Each that provides a thing, another a different thing, and so on? I do not think should be the case. However, my opinion was given, no way to keep failed verification for it. Waiting for other user takes. Island92 (talk) 14:30, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I guess we'll continue to disagree as long as you fully disregard WP:V. Cerebral726 (talk) 14:40, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This templating has not been productive or useful, but that's besides the point. The resolution to this situation will be to add refs which include (a) all individual race classifications for situations where a DNS/WD has occurred (b) all qualifying classifications and (c) all sprint results. Rather than continuing discussion on the matter, a more speedy resolution would be achieved by adding these sources to the tables. 5225C (talk • contributions) 16:56, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ridiculous, the templates have alerted users that there is room for improvement on a seemingly well sourced tables/statements, and has resulted in better sourcing overall. Nothing unproductive or useless about that. Do you think the failed verification template should be removed or that I am misusing it somehow? I add plenty of sources to justify my behavior as more than just drive-by templating. Cerebral726 (talk) 17:13, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I think it should be removed. This has been completely unproductive. If there was genuine concern about a systematic issue in sourcing for season articles it really should have been brought up here where the editors responsible for said systematic issue could have decided on an appropriate course of action. Instead a bunch of articles got templated which ultimately has only diminished their credibility to readers despite their accuracy never being in question. Maybe it complies with the letter of the law in whatever policy or documentation but hardly a common sense way to resolve the issue. I generally agree with your judgement when these sort of things crop up but this hasn't really been the most effective path to resolution. 5225C (talk • contributions) 17:24, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I appreciate the thoughtful response. I'm not sure who is putting in those sources for all those results tables, they've been around for years and I don't think it makes sense to try and go back to tell someone to fix their work they did years ago. Why not have the community of editors who care about this stuff see that someone has tagged something as needing improvement, and do so if they feel so inclined. There is no deadline to these things and "diminishing credibility" is something we as editors shouldn't worry about when we are trying to alert the community there is an area to be addressed. Cerebral726 (talk) 19:32, 12 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I think it has increased Wikipedia's credibility. It highlights that Wikipedians are dedicated to making sure that Wikipedia's content is properly sourced, and to improving articles more generally. What has been completely unproductive is this discussion in which some editors seem to believe that some content does not need to be sourced, flying completely in the face of one of the core policies: WP:V. SSSB (talk) 05:38, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Both entirely fair and reasonable perspectives. I do not intend to suggest that the issue should not be rectified, only that this was not the most efficient way to go about it. I will make a start on it tonight, probably while watching free practice. 5225C (talk • contributions) 05:40, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your effort. Now, if you want, I can provide sources that are needed for the table throughout the race weekend and after it. For example, when the "Final Starting Grid" is published (normally two hours before the race start), I can add it. Island92 (talk) 18:38, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That said, I think "Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile" can only be wikilinked once, per section, as we do for the all entry lists in the Entries table. Basically, the same can be done for stewards names. Vitantonio Liuzzi, Derek Warwick and so on are wikilinked more than once. Island92 (talk) 18:49, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Use of team colours

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Just starting a discussion about the potential use of team colours in both the Entries section of individual seasons and current F1 driver infobox headers (per NFL players). Could be nice aesthetic detail, even if not wholly necessary. F1 teams have used official colours, listed on the F1 website, for at least a decade now. Mb2437 (talk) 19:01, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

First of all, NFL and F1 colours are like apples and oranges. F1 "official" colours are based on liveries. They are a colour which matches the livery so that viewers can easily make the connection. Liveries are based on sponsers (with some exceptions) and can change from year to year. NFL colours are permenant (for the most part) and do not change. For example, the Cincinnati Bengals are black and orange because it matches the logo, which matches the name (Bengal tiger). McLaren are orange for marketing reasons, and less than 10 years ago they were dark grey. Using colours for historical purposes is therefore a big no-no, because the colours have no historical significance, and I would even go as far as to suggest that it would imply the McLaren of 10 years ago and the McLaren of today are seperate entities (which is, of course, nonsense).
As for using the colours for current purposes, for example in driver infoboxes. Firstly, how would this look? Because in NFL infoboxes (e.g. Bengals player Joe Burrow), where he is identified as a Bengals player operates as a header, for our infoboxes it doesn't. So in our infoboxes the aesthetic would not be an improvement, it would be messy. Secondly, what is the point? It would serve zero purpose. And it would require complicated superflusous code which would deter editors from updating it (becuase they don't understand the code), so it would be a net negative (and before you hit me with "NFL articles do not have this problem", {{Infobox NFL biography}} has team colours embeded in it, so they don't have this problem. As F1 team colours are not consistent across a team history (with a couple of exceptions), this would not be possible for F1 articles).
All in all, strong oppostion on all counts. SSSB (talk) 21:31, 13 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nationalities in Lead

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Since this is a topic that has blown out of proportion on Talk:Daniel Ricciardo, I am bringing it up here to get a consensus.

The argument is that only the nationality a driver races under should be mentioned in the lead, per MOS:NATIONALITY. Given that drivers frequently select nationalities to race under for financial and political reasons, I believe it is easier to state all their applicable nationalities (along with “competing under the x flag”) than simply the one they have selected, especially in cases such as Alex Albon and Max Verstappen. Thus, I oppose changing the current precedent of naming all nationalities in the lead. Mb2437 (talk) 21:46, 26 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am in support of changing the current precedent of naming all nationalities in the lead, because it doesn't meet biography guidelines and the precedent is incorrect. The convention for F1 pages simply states it should be included in the article. But the article is different thing to the intro. Wikipedia convention and guidelines are explicit in not including multiple nationalities in the intro, unless there is a notable reason for doing so. While I agree with @Mb2437 in that drivers may select to race under another flag. This doesn't mean that it is notable. Drivers choosing different flags is not unique to F1. It is done in football, basketball and plenty of other sports, but they are not listed with both citizenships, unless there's a notable reason for doing so. In Ricciardo's case there is no notable reason for doing so.
For a driver like Romain Grosjean, who has represented both Switzerland and France. It can make sense to include both. Until Ricciardo or any other driver does that, it should simply list the country they are notable for being from, which is in line with wikipedia guidelines under MOS:NATIONALITY.
I also propose rewording the conventions to be clearer and explain that the lead should only include one citizenship unless they are notable for both, while including any dual citizenship information in the body of the article. Basetornado (talk) 04:00, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I also oppose changing the way we do it now, especially if we take this discussion from only Daniel Ricciardo to changing it for all the drivers. This will create confusion with drivers like Max Verstappen (who is actually a Belgian person driving with a Dutch license), for them changing the lead to '... is a Dutch racing driver' would just be 100% incorrect. Also for drivers like Lando Norris and Lance Stroll who have raced with a Belgian or Flemish flag on their cars at some point in their career (Norris still does, he has both his flags on his helmet), and do identify with both their nationalities, it would only create confusion not to mention them both. Romain Grosjean (Swiss person racing for France), Nico Rosberg (Finnish Monegask driving for Germany) and Pascal Wehrlein (Mauritian driving for Germany) are a few others that raced for a different nationality than they associated most with. Now I do agree that Daniel Ricciardo is the odd one out here, aside from clearly being from an Italian family and admitting he has an Italian passport, he barely identifies with the country, but since we do mention it for all the other drivers in the lead, I think we should do it in his article too, just for consistency. — Preceding unsigned comment added by LesRoutine (talk • contribs) 07:57, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agree on all counts. Mb2437 (talk) 11:57, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I also agree. I think we must avoid a situation that we do mentioned in with some drivers, but not with others drivers. Then we get a lot of confusion and separate discussions.Lobo151 (talk) 12:36, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is getting ridiculous. No where else on wikipedia does it this way. Because it is against how pages should be written. No one is going to be confused. The vast majority of these drivers are notable for one country. Listing two is the confusing and misleading part. If it's a piece of trivia that a driver is a dual citizen, then they are not notable for being one, and it just leads to more confusion.
Wikipedia guidelines are incredibly clear on this. It only gets listed if it's notable. "They could choose to drive under a different nationality" is not notable. Having them all listed removes any context to why it's included. Because a driver who legitimately drove under both flags is listed the same as someone who never did, and only has citizenship through a parent, but is only ever referred too as being from that country.
How the majority of these pages, including Ricciardo's are currently written is in clear breach of the guidelines. There is not even a need for a consensus here. It's just plain wrong to list it as it is. Basetornado (talk) 13:07, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, the guidelines are not a set of rules, but a manual of style. It clearly says on top of the guidelines page you're linking that exceptions can be made if there is a consensus or if it's deemed necessary to make an article or type of articles better. Secondly I quote: "The opening paragraph should usually provide context for that which made the person notable. In most modern-day cases, this will be the country, region, or territory where the person is currently a national or permanent resident", this means that next to the country they are notable for, we can also include the territory where the person is currently a national of, because this is based on a persons passport.
There seems to be a consensus for this among editors of motorsport related articles, and it doesn't look like were gonna get to a solution here, so I guess we will have to get this reviewed by admins, preferably admins that have some feeling with sports articles. LesRoutine (talk) 13:25, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion just began yesterday. Administrators don't have more sway over consensus than other users, so just let this discussion continue and see where it goes. Cerebral726 (talk) 13:29, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Get it reviewed by admins. I have no issues with that. The guidelines also state there must be a good reason for doing so. So far some of the reasons Ive heard are "his parents are from there", "he puts their flag on his helmet" and "drivers can change nationalities". None of which is a good enough reason and can be said about virtually any athlete with dual citizenship.
That sentence about the opening paragraph, it's also explicitly stating that dual citizenship should not be listed unless notable. They even have examples of dual citizens underneath it, showing why they're not listed, as well as some that are because they are notable for both. Basetornado (talk) 13:55, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The MOS is clear, nationality is only to be mentioned if notable, and Ricciardo's Italian nationality is not. It can be discussed in his personal life section. 5225C (talk • contributions) 13:35, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
By the same logic, Grosjean's Swiss, Rosberg's Finnish and Monegasque, Wehrlein's Mauritian and Norris's and Stroll's Belgian nationalities are also not notable, and do not need to be mentioned in the lead, as they have not gained notability under those nationalities. Marbe166 (talk) 13:46, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Norris and Stroll's Belgian nationalities shouldn't be mentioned. They are effectively trivia. Not notable to the average person. Rosberg's Finnish nationality may be notable as he did race under that and his father was a Finnish world champion in the sport, but Monegasque is completely out. Wehrlein lists himself as Mauritian and German, so it's more borderline. Basetornado (talk) 13:50, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Correct! Well done :) 5225C (talk • contributions) 14:12, 27 September 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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