User talk:Hidden Tempo
Reply
- Years ago the New Jersey police were criticized for disproportionately stopping African American drivers on the New Jersey Turnpike. The speed limit on the southern part of that road is 65mph but due to lax enforcement typical traffic flow is closer to 80mph. That discrepancy between law and custom created a situation in which the individual African American driver, though disproportionately targeted, had no defense: all drivers were guilty and African Americans as a subset of all drivers were also guilty. I see parallels when comparing the behaviors outlined in WP:TENDENTIOUS with that of editors in the Donald Trump article. I don't recall whether the problems in New Jersey were corrected but they did prompt in a Justice Department study.
- I recently (though somewhat lazily) began aggregating sanction enforcement data for analysis. Whether my effort's justified or any useful patterns will emerge is to be seen but if it interests you I'd welcome the collaboration. James J. Lambden (talk) 21:20, 30 November 2016 (UTC)
Merry Christmas and Happy New Year
Just wanted to wish you a very merry Christmas and a very happy New Year. Soham321 (talk) 21:34, 26 December 2016 (UTC)
- Merry Christmas!! Thanks again for all your help. Hidden Tempo (talk) 00:45, 27 December 2016 (UTC)
Missing articles
I notice a conspicuous absence of the articles Tin-pot tyrant and/or Tin-pot dictator (a redirect.) Much of the relevant content would precede 1932, which is outside the scope of your topic ban if you're so inclined. James J. Lambden (talk) 22:15, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
- Hey, @James J. Lambden. Thanks for the heads up, although I find it hard to find the motivation to edit those pages, as my history is more than a little rough. Also it seems that only one area on Wikipedia (which I can't talk about without receiving an e-caning) is the primary target of the coordinated efforts to remove neutrality and insert the worldviews of the editors. I just can't use Wikipedia for that topic anymore, as it's become just so unreliable and egregiously dishonest. I really like the table you compiled on your page, though. It paints a very clear, albeit disturbing picture of the trend that these people deny exists. Hidden Tempo (talk) 03:20, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
- Structurally Wikipedia reminds me of Wall St in the sense that few at the top benefit disproportionately in a system contingent upon mass participation. To put the analogy concretely: if the average investor withdrew their funds financial speculation would become less lucrative. Wikipedia relies on immense, often tedious effort of IP and apolitical editors so that a small few may use it to advance an agenda. How one best corrects such a system is a difficult question but I suspect change must come from the many, not the few. James J. Lambden (talk) 03:04, 14 February 2017 (UTC)
Were you replying to me?
The comment you made here, looks like it was replying to my comment. Perhaps got a little mixed up on the format there. PackMecEng (talk) 02:08, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- No, PackMecEng, I addressed BullRangifer in my comment but maybe it was confusing since it was directly after your edit. I didn't want to stomp on your edit by cramming mine in there. Was that not right? Feel free to move my reply to above yours if that's more appropriate. Hidden Tempo (talk) 02:11, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
- No worries, I was just curious. I have no issue with where it is. PackMecEng (talk) 02:12, 27 July 2017 (UTC)
Blocked
{{unblock|reason=Your reason here ~~~~}}
. MastCell Talk 22:39, 7 August 2017 (UTC)First unblock request
Original Unblock Request/Discussion/Support and Opposition |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Superceded by #Revised/fresh unblock request below {{unblock|reason=
}} Black_Kite - you stated that my M.O. is to insert "badly sourced/NPOV" material into articles? May I request diffs of this for an example? I strive to always make sure my additions are properly sourced so I am astounded at this accusation. I also have made recent postings at the NPOV and BLP noticeboard, as I do not reinstate contentious material without seeking consensus on the talk-page. I feel this indefinite block is highly unwarranted, and there is a lot of backstory that is being missed here. I believe at least a few administrators admitted to not even reading the entire AN/I report (not that I can blame them), but there were a lot of half-truths and falsehoods stated in that report. Hidden Tempo (talk) 15:32, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
Wow, this is bad. I absolutely abhor political topics, but this takes the cake. While I haven't seen MastCell edit this particular article, he has edited a number of politically oriented articles recently (within the last year). He's an involved admin on this topic, and should not be taking administrative actions on disputes related to that topic, particularly not indefinite blocks. --Kyohyi (talk) 14:16, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
Amicus briefI happen to enjoy editing the minefield that is current US politics, and have come to interact with Hidden Tempo as well as many "regulars" in this subject area. I do not see a pattern of bad behaviour from this specific editor, which would justify an indef block, not by a mile. The incident that triggered the block stems from different interpretations of the sourcing and BLP policies, and HT's rationale for his stance sounds totally appropriate, although the edit-warring must of course be frowned upon. But I've seen numerous cases where BLPVIO trumps EW -- again, that would be a matter of individual judgment, warranting at best an admonition cum trout, at worst a short block for occasional edit-warring. I note that HT makes frequent use of talk page discussions and guidance boards, and exhibits no battleground mentality. For all those reasons, I recommend to rescind the block. — JFG talk 15:54, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
I've been keeping a close eye on these discussions, and regardless of whether my personal views mesh with yours or not this indef block does seem draconian - given that punishments aren't doled out on Wikipedia (every measure is preventative) and that you seem willing to work with the community on their concerns. User:MastCell does mention sockpuppetry (a pretty big accusation) so there could be more here than we can see, but MastCell can provide whatever public sock investigations there are, if any. Garchy (talk) 18:53, 8 August 2017 (UTC)
Hi MastCell, just checking in. Am I still being considered for the unblock, or am I meant to submit a formal ticket request to have an uninvolved administrator review my block? I read the appeal guide but it was a little unclear as to whether I'm supposed to wait for the result of the template first, or if I can also submit a ticket request for the uninvolved admin review also. Thanks. Hidden Tempo (talk) 21:15, 9 August 2017 (UTC)
Alex Shih - I hope you don't mind my pinging you, but I see you handle a good amount of administrative actions and thought you may be able to help (feel free to direct me to another admin if appropriate). It appears my blocking admin has gone inactive for a few days now and isn't responding to my request for clarification. Could you please see the above question? I'm wondering if there is something else I could be doing right now in regards to the unblock request, or perhaps there is an ongoing discussion on an admin board concerning my case? I am seeking a review by an uninvolved (not political-article involved, specifically) administrator. Apologies if you're busy, I understand the back and forth above is kind of a journey. Thank you in advance for your assistance. Hidden Tempo (talk) 15:23, 11 August 2017 (UTC)
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A barnstar for you!
The Barnstar of Integrity | ||
I'm taking my own advice and thanking you for your commitment to upholding Wikipedia's policy that encyclopedic content on Wikipedia must be written from a neutral point of view in an area where that can be particularly difficult. I'd also like to thank you for your extraordinary patience and civility given the circumstances you've found yourself in. I sincerely hope you'll be able to contribute to the project soon. Cjhard (talk) 05:14, 9 August 2017 (UTC) |
UTRS unblock request (cancelled)
UTRS Unblock Request Canceled |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
This blocked user is asking that their block be reviewed on the Unblock Ticket Request System: Hidden Tempo (block log • active blocks • global blocks • autoblocks • contribs • deleted contribs • abuse filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log)) UTRS appeal #18968 was submitted on Aug 12, 2017 04:10:43. This review is now closed.
--UTRSBot (talk) 04:10, 12 August 2017 (UTC) Just Chilling - thank you for your reply through UTRS. Just to clarify, am I meant to post another unblock template similar to above, and copy-paste the request I made through the system onto my talk page? As I already have an unblock request template active, I don't want to be seen as attempting to game the system or be disruptive. Although it's been about 5 days since I was indef blocked with no review so I'm seeking other avenues. Thanks. Hidden Tempo (talk) 14:54, 12 August 2017 (UTC)
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Revised/fresh unblock request
Hidden Tempo (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))
Request reason:
I was given five primary reasons for my indefinite block, and would like to attempt to briefly address all of them. My goal here is not to debate or wikilawyer my way out of a sanction – rather to show why the sanction is massively disproportionate, and to assure the reviewing admin(s) that I am able to edit the encyclopedia productively and without need for any future sanction. Apologies for the length, but I feel many nuances were missed in my first unblock request, which is emphasized by the continuing lack of consensus regarding my fate.
- Disruptive editing. My goal is always to find common ground with other editors to help build the encyclopedia[29]. Many discussions have been robust and even heated at times, but I hold WP:V in high regard and strive to stay true to source material. I have brought content disputes to the WP:BLP noticeboard[30], the NPOV noticeboard[31], the OR noticeboard[32][33], and have engaged in countless talk page discussions regarding content. I have collaboratively worked with editors on content disputes to find common ground when we may initially disagree (such as Neutrality and MelanieN).[34][35] My editing is collaborative in nature, not disruptive.
- Tendentious editing. Again, my edits are always geared toward NPOV language. When editors disagree, I engage in conversation on the talk page. I have only violated 3RR once, and when I accidentally violated 1RR on Sean Spicer, I self-reverted immediately[36] after it was pointed out to me by Neutrality[37]. I do not accuse others of vandalism, and after questioning the validity of "Isthmus" as a RS on James O'Keefe, I took it to the RS noticeboard[38], and dropped the WP:STICK after consensus stacked up against my view. While it's true that I have strenuously argued my case for material numerous times, I concede when the consensus is not in my favor. I lack all of the defining features of a tendentious editor.
- Agenda-driven editing. My only "agenda" is to improve the encyclopedia. While of course I have my own person opinions (as all editors of political articles do), I consistently make an effort to leave them at the door when I log in to WP. I work very hard to maintain neutrality of my edits regardless of my own personal opinions, and of course welcome constructive criticism of my edits.
- Edit-warring. I admit that I engaged in an edit war with two to three editors at Stephen Miller, and I was wrong for doing that. I should have taken a break, and allowed my posting on the OR noticeboard to come to a consensus. While it does not excuse my violation of 3RR, I did so because I believed that the contentious, poorly-sourced material that was being repeatedly reinstated without consensus violated WP:BLP, and therefore must be removed immediately (as BLPVIO’s do not count against 3RR). The source was an opinion article, which did not contain any material about an "attack on Americans" or a "deficit of nationalism," material which was eventually removed from the article. However, I understand that this is not an excuse to edit war. If unblocked, I will not engage in an edit war again (even if I believe the material is a BLPVIO).
- Numerous sanctions for prior behavior. This one is false. I did receive a topic ban for soapboxing and apparently violating BLP[39], which I probably deserved as Bishonen did give me warnings beforehand . Since then, I have not been soapboxing and have repeatedly implored other editors to address concerns with my editing or tangential criticism of my edits as a whole to my talk page, rather than disrupt content discussions with side-debates. I have not violated BLP even once since my TBAN. The other sanction to which MastCell is referring is a series of blocks all related to my single incident of sockpuppetry in February. While I will not try to explain or excuse that incident, it was my one and only violation and my socking days are over. Per WP:APPEAL, "Once a block is over, it's over," and since this is my sole SP infraction (and always will be), this sanction should not be factored into this block (although I have seen at least two editors reference this sanction as if it should somehow alter a 3RR block). But I have never been sanctioned for disruptive/
tendentious/agenda-driven editing, or edit-warring. This is my first sanction for the above infractions, for which I was given an indefinite block without warning. - On a final note, I included the below material in the UTRS request as I did not want to publicly air an admin's dirty laundry and be viewed as disruptive/being uncivil toward an admin, but it appears that system is not appropriate for my type of block, so please expand the section below this request to view the relevant information. Thank you. Hidden Tempo (talk) 04:58, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
Decline reason:
Declined per AN discussion closure. Please note that you have been given the Standard offer of six months with no socking or editing. If there are any questions please ping me or send me an email. Primefac (talk) 13:48, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.
Supplemental material/Discussion related to blocking administrator's editing history
Requested evaluation of the suitability and impartiality of blocking admin |
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I am not making a formal accusation of impropriety against my blocking editor, MastCell. However, I ask that MC’s own editing history is taken into account while reviewing my block. MC is quite active in the AP2 arena, contributing heavily to abortion-related articles, John K. Bush, Donald Trump, Bill O’Reilly[40], Murder of Seth Rich, American Health Care Act of 2017 (inserting his opinions and material unfavorable to Republicans into the article with sensational language[41]), conservative media outlets such as Daily Caller and Washington Examiner, and other highly charged political articles. All of MC’s BLP edits are made to include material that reflect unfavorably upon the subjects, and echo the views and perspectives of Democrats and liberal organizations – never that of Republicans and conservative outlets. I have provided examples here, but MC’s editing history is filled with similar partisan, agenda-driven edits. For this reason, I feel it is inappropriate for this very AP2-active admin with a clear editing pattern to have issued the indefinite block, especially while using words like “agenda” and “partisan” in his rationale. Additionally, I find it highly irregular that MastCell's last edit was on 21 June 2017, when he commented on Murder of Seth Rich (to complain and opine that the controversy around the murder is “distressing” to the victim’s family and isn’t compliant with “basic human decency”[42]) , and he remained inactive on WP until 7 Aug 2017 (almost 7 weeks). Upon his sudden return to Wikipedia, he made a few quick abortion/gay-rights related edits to John K. Bush's BLP, as well as content about Bush engaging in "right-wing conspiracy theories."[43] Thirty three minutes after his return to WP, MastCell arrived at AN/I and promptly indef blocked me. Including the time it takes to type up his rationale on AN/I, that leaves maybe about 10 minutes to review my three years of editing history (as well as that of Nfitz), come to the conclusions listed above, and decide I am unfit to edit Wikipedia. MC then gives a very milquetoast, gentle warning to Nfitz not to violate BLP[44] (by repeatedly calling Donald Trump a "piece of shit," "misogynist," and a "bigot" with zero diffs). Note that these violations got Nfitz indef'd after another admin saw what he had been doing. This is information relevant to MastCell, not Nfitz - that editor's outcome has no relevance to my sanction.
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Continued discussion of unblock request
Extended discussion |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Hi again Alex Shih, only pinging you since you mentioned that you may review my unblock request if you have time. I don't know if you noticed or not but I made a new unblock request that specifically addressed each reason for the indef block and laid out either why each is either untrue and/or will not (re)occur. I also included the above section illustrating why the blocking editor should not be issuing AP2-related sanctions in the first place, as I'm not sure how familiar WP administrators are with MastCell's editing patterns. MastCell protested the collection of diffs showing his history and intense interest in adding pro-choice literature and unfavorable material to conservative/Republican BLPs (diffs in collapsed section above), and I gave him the opportunity to clear up the alleged misunderstanding that he called "dishonest." That was a week ago, and he provided nothing. I'm still really unclear how an editor such as myself with this kind of attitude[52] that has been described as "collaborative and courteous" by two administrators[53][54] just weeks before an indef block could be described as "tendentious"/"hyper-partisan"/"agenda-driven." I don't have access to the admin discussion board of course, but I'm having a very hard time imagining admins looking at these diffs and saying "Oh yes, this is an editor who can't possibly be trusted to edit film and sports articles. And looking at these diffs, we must indefinitely block this editor to prevent him from disrupting AP2 articles with his 'collaborative' and 'courteous' discussion." Of course a sense of camaraderie among admins is to be expected, and I understand that admins will be reluctant to disagree with sanctions placed by other admins, but I think in this case the above diffs really don't back any of the five indef reasons. The only one with merit is my sole 3RR violation (that I've agreed not to repeat), which I believe a 72-hr block is standard, a time frame which has long passed. A neutral, objective review would be appreciated. Thanks. Hidden Tempo (talk) 16:42, 23 August 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) If this is a request to take a look, then sure. What the wall of text seems to say (on a quick skim, and without assuming motives or actions): Hidden Tempo has a past record of problematic editing. Probably at least part in good faith, but enough to get a Arbcom topic ban notice from Bishonen, a long-standing admin, followed by a block, evasion of the block with socks, and was then contrite and allowed to edit again. That was mostly from what I can tell, last year or early this year (the socks being on SPI around Feb+March). That's quite a time ago in wiki terms. MastCell and some others feel the behavior hasn't stopped, they believe that Hidden Tempo is a tendentious editor who is good at convincing people to grant more chances. Hidden Tempo seems to feel that MastCell and perhaps others shouldn't be taking an admin role in a subject where they have a strong editing history (even if not on that exact article), and are judging him/her unfairly. So we've come to a point where one bunch of people are pretty sure Hidden Tempo is unable to be helped and verging on a full ban, while Hidden Tempo is either acting cleverly or else if I assume good faith, is trying to solve a problem of wiki-bureaucracy that seems to not be hearing what he's saying and is frustrated but trying to do right. Both interpretations are plausible; unfortunately both happen quite often. My gut feel on a quick skim, is that there's a fair-to-good chance Hidden Tempo is trying to do right. I've dropped an email to both him and the blocking admin (to avoid adding lots of words to this wall of text). In it, I describe what I am seeing and what might help to resolve the discussion or make it more productive. Right now this thread has a lot more "heat" than "light", not much focus on the core points of conduct and BLP. The main evidence of poor conduct seems to be a finger pointed at a set of blocks 8 months ago that were evaded 6 months ago plus an unsupported claim of continuing tendentiousness without recent diffs, a single 3RR that's been apologized for, and a disputed removal that may or may not have been aiming to fix a BLP vio and may or may not have been in good faith. Hmm. Like I said, I've emailed both with a more detailed version of the above (I felt in an experimental mood!) and if asked I'll post it here, but for now - let's cool down, let the user and blocking admin see if there's anything of value in it, and see if they can restart this discussion more successfully. FT2 (Talk | email) 00:07, 24 August 2017 (UTC)
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Review of block
Request for clarification from MastCell with MastCell's Response | ||
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. | ||
@MastCell - I'm not interested in enabling, nor in making any formal block decision. I *am* currently seeing real concerns with the block, but that could be down to not knowing everything you know about HT's recent conduct. Specifically, his conduct across the board just doesn't fit with the description given, and the total lack of recent (or any 2017) diffs showing significant warrior conduct as claimed. Note that warring isn't the same as strong views: many editors state strong views held robustly but aren't warriors. Maybe Hidden Tempo (can I abbreviate to "HT"?) really is a clever tendentious gamer but honestly, that's not my first impression pending actual diffs for reasons below - and I'm usually good at differentiating gamers from users where the issue is communication not tendentiousness.
From the above thread, HT seems to have been has been indeffed and stated to be irredeemably tendentious on the basis of what looks like several months of apparently clean editing after his block ended on 17 March, in which I haven't found evidence of issues, followed by a 5 day period 2 - 6 August 2017 in which I see:
The problem with the picture presented on HT's user talk page is, a lot of things that should usually have been seen if the block was appropriate, apparently weren't. There is good discussion and response by HT with diffs on several occasions that nobody contested. There's no trace so far of ongoing issues or anything else that isn't stale, or that he's been discussed at noticeboards or his conduct focused on between March and this. (They might exist but if so there's no links to them). He actively edited since May but has had no other blocks, talk page warnings or expressions of concern in that time, not even a single 3RR notice. People exposed as warriors on high profile pages with AC sanctions active, don't usually get that after their first block, especially if they sock-evaded it, because of the high scrutiny they get for years after. I also came away with genuine concerns about the proportionality of the block unless there's a lot more gone on than I saw. It looks a bit like the often-snarky expression by HT of frustration and worry has been added to his conduct in a specific short-term dispute (with his points not seeming to be considered), and then added on to his old conduct from months back, in the block notice. If so that wouldn't be okay. The reasonable points he raises and where he asks for actual evidence of the claims have also been ignored which could be seen as unfair if they have merit, and they might. So perhaps this matter is really specifically about a single issue, because the pages I've found don't seem to be saying "hyper-anything tendentious warrior" unless there's a lot more to it or someone has evidence of serious ongoing issues persisting/resuming after he returned in March 2017. So far it's all related to some 8 reverts and a short but uncivil thread discussing them over a 5 day period, which was a single specific issue.
I feel at present the evidence I could see doesn't support the block. But there may be much more I didn't see. We need to know these things from the blocking admin or others who know the situation:
We need these as diffs or thread links, not vague claims or pointing fingers at old conduct from 2016 and a block evasion more than 5 months ago. That would allow a more fair and considered discussion which isn't dominated by "heat". If HT is as described in the block notice, I'd expect it to be easy to produce links to recent and clear evidence (preferably June/July 2017 but at least after he resumed editing in March) that shows the problem conduct. That lets other users distinguish an editor with good intentions but some verbal tone issues, who might learn, from a socking troll warrior who won't ever. Some care might be needed to be sure if the diffs show good faith but snarky editing with some attacks, or bad faith and wilful gaming.
Hidden Tempo - you need to read the detail above, because your verbal tone and style on the thread I've linked near the end *will* get you blocks and perhaps indeed a ban at some time, if you resume editing and handle disputes like that again. It really was not good and even if not indef it was close to the edge of a block. I can see why it wasn't taken seriously and seemed like bad faith gaming. Only the fact that most other conduct in the talk page thread was as poor, and having the spirit of WP:BLP/WP:3RR on your side as you were removing a claimed BLP vio, leave your reverts not breaching about 8RR or something and a sizeable block. Next time those may not help you. Consider that a fair "heads up". I believe you might be able to learn from it and do it differently going forward. We have WP:DR for disputes. Use it and aim for light, not heat. And discuss your own conduct rather than that of others. You do not want to be perceived to be distracting from the issues right now, seriously, and that would be seen as a distraction. You can come back to them afterwards. WP:Unblock perspectives may help. MastCell - you also need to read it. The block post was sloppy and in a sense, much of the drama that came from it is fueled by that, and something I feel you could have easily reduced by simply providing diffs as normal when you did the block or soon after. Showing the claimed behavior would have let others review it without making assumptions about what HT had done. Especially as the talk page didn't give any information or refer to it anywhere else. Then HT would not have been able to feel your position was unfounded and accuse you in the way he did. You also did no favors by refusing/failing to post links later on as well. I'm not surprised HT was unhappy at you - many users in that position would be. Finally there's a strong possibility that the block may have been overdone and the view overstated. It also might not have hurt to graciously offer to pass the matter to a different admin when HT raised the concern that he felt uncomfortable about your proximity to the topic area, and without looking bad, offering him to pass it to someone else might have cooled that fear. I can't say for sure as the diffs/links/info needed for uninvolved users to decide what they make of it are missing; perhaps HT really is just a gamer and I'm wrong. But I don't think so, although his tone and use of WP:DR really needs to improve or he will have issues in future. But right now and given the lack of any other alleged issue, that's how it looks. Please could you post the diffs so we can see the recent other behavior that you feel is relevant and not have to assume? Thank you. FT2 (Talk | email) 06:15, 25 August 2017 (UTC)
Thanks FT2, I am willing to take Awilley's advice about WP:AGF for admins and other critical editors who stop by. I am not seeking any excuse to find fault with an admin who supports this sanction - Alex Shih mentioned that he doesn't want to unblock me, and that's fine. I took a look at his user contribs, found he wasn't involved in AP2 articles, and requested his opinion. I was disappointed that he didn't provide any diffs to back his reasoning or address my UBR, but like all admins, he's a volunteer and is under no obligation to do so. What confuses me is that I've been languishing for weeks under this indefinite block, and after repeated requests for diffs and repeated requests to review the block, MastCell still stands defiant. I was under the impression WP:ADMINACCT requires sanctioning admins to supply their reasoning for their sanctions in the form of extensive diffs, and to approve/decline UBR's within a reasonable amount of time, rather than mention the vague catch all "tendentious/agenda-driven" and just leave it at that. MastCell's last comment here was a general rant against "people like [me]," a few attacks lobbed your way, and a final refusal to explain his sanction and/or review my UBR. I'm trying to AGF in the adminship - there must be a good reason that none of them have formally reviewed my request and none of them (save for yourself) have pressured MastCell to explain his sanction. I simply have no idea what that reason is. Hidden Tempo (talk) 19:36, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
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Offer to convert the block to a topic ban
Bishonen Makes Unblock Offer with Indef T-BAN/12-month Appeal Condition |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Unfortunately I find it hard to believe Hidden Tempo is capable of editing American politics constructively. His entire history shows it, and not least his wikilawyering self-justification and attacks on MastCell following the current indefinite block (his second indefinite block). Yet he can presumably edit with propriety in other areas, for example film and sports, as he did during the earlier topic ban. Hidden Tempo, if you wish, I will convert the block to an indefinite topic ban from post-1932 American politics, with an appeal on
@Bishonen - thank you for this offer. I have to admit that I was not exactly expecting that my best (and only) offer so far would be coming from you, given our less than amicable history and my less than polite jabs I have taken at you in the past. I do appreciate you taking the time to come to my talk page and presenting a possible solution. However, I don't believe an indefinite AP2 ban without the ability to appeal is just, proportionate, or logical given the circumstances. I understand that requests/appeals can be labor-intensive, but I view it as highly unusual and confusing why my blocking admin is not required to offer supporting diffs, even after being repeatedly asked. MastCell came back from his 2-month hiatus, promptly indef blocked me after ~10 min review of my editing/typing the notice at ANI, and thus likely had no time to gather any diffs. MC has had nearly a month now, yet still, none of us have seen any diffs. I was disappointed in your statement that my "entire history" shows I am incapable of editing AP2 areas constructively, given this, this, this and this, just a very small sample of edits made shortly before this indef and presented in my unblock request. Without being given any diffs that brought you to that conclusion, I and others have no way to examine the recent edits to which you are referring. Additionally, in my unblock request I explicitly stated that my goal is not to wikilawyer in my UBR, and indeed I did not (per WP:WL). I used WP:GAB and individually addressed each concern of the blocking admin, gave reasons why another 3RR would not reoccur (even to remove BLPVIO material), and made my case as to why I am, and can continue to be, a productive member of the community. You stated that I can presumably edit with propriety in other topic areas. If you do in fact disagree with MastCell on this point, and noting that MastCell has still not provided a single diff to illustrate my "repeated disruptive, tendentious, and agenda-driven editing," I feel that I should be unblocked regardless of my answer to your offer. My AP2 productivity is a separate issue that should be revisited after the unblock, and any TBAN could then be imposed by you or another admin should he or she feel it appropriate. If an indefinite block is warranted due to my incapability to edit articles related to film, sports, and other areas, I believe I should be given diffs to support the continued implementation of the block. Hidden Tempo (talk) 02:04, 7 September 2017 (UTC)
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Thoughts that might break the block review logjam
Floquenbeam observations and resulting discussion |
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Strange that this unblock request has taken so long; I'm guessing that many admins have reviewed it (or a portion of it), decided not to unblock, but are hesitant to decline because of the inevitable timesink that would follow. I won't decline this, because my admiration for Bish and MC is well known. I can be unbiased, but I wouldn't look unbiased. But I do want to cut thru the millions of bytes above, and provide a simple perspective that a reviewing admin might find useful. HT was topic banned from politics earlier this year, and created a sockpuppet to continue editing in the politics area, and then, when caught, pretended not to know this was wrong. It is simply not possible that he didn't know that was wrong; the reviewing admin (when they show up) should do a reality check for a minute, and try to imagine how someone could possibly misunderstand to such an extent; that we've blocked your account from editing a subject for doing disruptive things, but it's ok to continue editing the subject if you just create a new account. It is not possible; that's not obscure WP policy, it is common sense. Basic common sense. So, we've established not only that HT is a POV-pusher (original block and topic ban), we've established that he lies about stuff. It is invalid to say "hey, I did my time for the sockpuppet thing, you can't use it as justification anymore". It is part of a pattern of behavior. I'm unclear why we would ever want someone like that back in the politics area - we seem to already have our quota of dishonest POV pushers - but WP loves second chances, and he was unblocked, with a limited duration topic ban. HT was thus already on their final chance. It is not necessary to establish a new pattern of behavior after the unblock; the pattern was already established, and the last episode of gamesmanship was the last straw. FYI, HT, take this with however much salt you want, but I think Bish's indef topic ban is the best offer you're going to get, and I'm a little surprised she offered. If I were you, I'd take it. Sooner or later, a no-nonsense admin who doesn't believe in multiple "last chances" is going to notice this has been languishing in CAT:UNBLOCK for a while, decline it, remove talk page access to stop the timesink, and move on. I'm not positive what the policy pages say, but I've been around a while, and I'm fairly confident ArbCom does not get involved in "normal" block appeals; if this was an AE block or an ArbCom/community ban, they would, but I don't think I've seen them take an appeal of a run of the mill disruptive editor block. If not, any reviewing admin should keep in mind that, although they are required to explain their block, they are not required to talk to you endlessly about it. I suggest the next uninvolved admin who peeks at this page just read it all once, do whatever they think is right, explain it briefly, and move on. --Floquenbeam (talk) 12:50, 14 September 2017 (UTC)
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The T-ban offer has expired
Bishonen Withdraws Indef T-BAN/12-month Appeal Offer |
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I'm sure you already know this, HT, but just so everybody who might want to comment here is aware: my offer to convert the indefinite block to a topic ban from post-1932 American politics is past its deadline and is no longer on the table. I withdraw it. It has ceased to be. Bishonen | talk 09:53, 15 September 2017 (UTC). |
Over to WP:AN
Boing! said Zebedee's Opening of AN Discussion for Community Review of UBR |
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As I suggested above, I have now put the unblock request on hold and have turned it over to the community at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Unblock request at User talk:Hidden Tempo to decide. I think that's the only realistic option at this point. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 12:57, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
Drmies - would you please move your comments the AN board, or perhaps save them until Mandruss/Boing! has the opportunity to move them over? They have been kind enough to do me the favor of moving my responses since I am not permitted to participate in the discussion due to the diff-less block. I'm trying to keep the below section clean as a temporary spot for my replies, and don't want the waters muddied as has been happening all throughout my talk page over the last month. Hidden Tempo (talk)
Kyohyi, am I going crazy or did your edit disappear from the AN board? I swear I know how to use ctrl+F but I'm not seeing your comment anywhere now.Hidden Tempo (talk) 03:37, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
You are making points in rebuttal, others are missing, ignoring, or not buying your points, and you are repeating the same points to them. That puts you squarely in WP:BLUDGEON territory, which never works in your favor. If you have failed to change minds so far, further replies will only serve to increase the likelihood that your existing rebuttals will be lost in the clutter. Since minds are rarely changed in these things anyway, you've done the best you can in a system lacking impartial judges who would discount !votes that fail to respond to prior good points. You have presented your case. I think the most likely result is the topic ban, unless you annoy too many more people by BLUDGEONing. Another possibility is that the thing will reach that critical mass where nobody has the time to read it, and the default result in that case is no action (I've been there once, and that lesson was well learned). In this situation, no action means no unblock. My opinions. ―Mandruss ☎ 06:01, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
TheTimesAreAChanging - I cannot reply to your ping directly, as I am still indefinitely blocked for an imaginary, diff-less pattern of problematic editing. Currently embroiled in the AN discussion and resulting prevailing groupthink, but what you said about SPECIFICO is correct. She is currently arguing for my demise, getting traction due to her identical AP2 editing patterns as my blocking administrator. Hidden Tempo (talk) 22:18, 16 September 2017 (UTC) Boing! said Zebedee - will it be you who makes the final call here on the AN outcome? Looks like we have a nice bell curve here by my tally: 5 unconditional unblock votes, 9 unblock with indef TBAN votes, and 5 block votes (with a few of those voting "unblock w/TBAN" as second choice). If I can't get the sanction voided by virtue of the clear WP:EXPLAINBLOCK/WP:ADMINACCT violations, it looks like I'll have to settle for the indef TBAN given for unknown edits. Since the ban is indefinite, the community won't have to concern itself with the fact that I was never shown what I did wrong, and thus won't even have the opportunity to commit the same violations in AP2. Hidden Tempo (talk) 23:47, 16 September 2017 (UTC)
Re this editsum, the other editors doing copying are not necessarily going to see it. Either add the instructions to the page text or move the comment out of the section headed "for AN report", or both. For that matter, all of the instructions should be in the page text. ―Mandruss ☎ 23:10, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
Awilley - while I appreciate that you agree with my request to close the thread, I wanted to point out two quick things. One is that I never once attacked MastCell. As I stated, I'm sure he is a fine individual[73]. What I attacked was his judgment and suitability of a highly AP2-involved admin with a clear political agenda (primarily edits favoring abortion and adding/removing material to the detriment of conservative figures) in handing out AP2-related sanctions. There is a clear difference, and it is important. As you can see by the diagram on my user page, I am highly mindful of WP:NPA. Also, please note that Bishonen's offer is obsolete. She made the offer, I refused because it was intolerable and based on non-existent diffs, and so the offer expired. Many !votes offered varying lengths for a potential TBAN, and most did not include the "appeal only after 12 months" clause. The closing admin should decide on the duration of the TBAN and appeal conditions, should there be one imposed at all. Bishonen gets a !vote, like the rest of the community, but her suggestion should not receive extra weight at this stage of the appeal. Hidden Tempo (talk) 00:51, 24 September 2017 (UTC)
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Responses/Discussion for AN Report
Hidden Tempo's Responses Copied to AN Discussion - Thank you for your help Mandruss and Boing! | ||
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This section is not for general discussion or debate. Since I am not permitted to defend myself at the AN board or make a statement, I will be using this section to correct the record when it calls for it, and supply diffs when asked or to provide background. Hidden Tempo (talk) 15:30, 15 September 2017 (UTC)
(Three sections above copied to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard#Responses/Discussion from Hidden Tempo. Boing! said Zebedee (talk) 16:30, 15 September 2017 (UTC))
(sorry for the long wall - we've been waiting for MC to respond for a very long time) The personal attacks and falsehoods from MastCell serve to illuminate several points I've been making all along, starting with the crass epithet of "enablers" directed to those who dare question MC's authority and judgment. MC cites this diff as his supposed "evidence." There's just one problem: the diffs within his diff are (2) references to my TBAN, (1) of the sockpuppeting, and (1) of my TBAN appeal. In Nfitz's ANI report, MC says that You also submit that I
MastCell continues to make the same mistakes and utter the same falsehoods. Following the same exact flowchart template he's been using for a month: 1) he says I'm not accepting responsibility for the editing behavior for which he refuses to provide diffs, despite my UBR and repeated acceptances of responsibility for the 3RR 2) attempt the "Look at this over here, instead!" sleight-of-diff (linking pre-TBAN/mid-TBAN editing, rather than the "repeated instances" of problematic editing for which I was blocked) to distract from the absence of diffs, 3) utter damaging and demonstrably false claims, and hope nobody notices (never once did I assign fault of the socking to "someone else"[82]), and I also never called into question the AP2 edits of any other admin - just yours. Then, you cite somebody else's diff as part of your strategy to lend credence to what you are saying. Pinging Thucydides411 so he is aware of the egregious dishonesty of this act. Then, you finish with the tired old falsehood that you keep repeating, that YOU are being attacked. And for the nth time, you are not being attacked. Your sanction within the context of your agenda-driven abortion/AP2 editing pattern is what I, and others, have called into question. I explained the difference to you in detail here, which was never moved to the AN board (too long, but the takeaway is that you never provided diffs for what you call
Not going to respond to every Bishonen claim here, in the hopes that folks will actually click on the diffs and verify if what she says is in fact true. As I had previously stated, nobody would think less of anyone for not educating themselves with the facts of the talk page discussion, and thus recusing themselves from voting/commenting. I don't remember anyone informing me that I may not correct false claims or respond to aspersions in the AN discussion. The 3RR vio (which Bishonen sees as a WP:CRYBLP issue) has been discussed and resolved. The fact that the only diffs editors can find are of pre/mid-TBAN behavior, rather than the alleged behavior for which the block was given, speaks volumes. Instead of showing us diffs of this supposed
MP - I am going to AGF and operate under the assumption that you are offering your completely unbiased, neutral, and objective opinion. However, I noticed that your AP2 edits have the identical overarching theme of MastCell's, MrX's, SPECIFICO's, and Objective3000's AP2 edits, and recently uttered this without a hint of satire or jest, yet you still felt it necessary to cast a !vote anyway. I am offended and irked by that decision. Today, you said this:
TGS, I've already responded to this claim multiple times, so I would direct you to those replies. The takeaway is: I cannot "outright [take] responsibility for all the reasons" (a "tendentious, hyper-partisan, agenda-driven disruptive" post-TBAN editing pattern) if the blocking administrator can not or will not provide diffs showing this editing pattern. I have outlined my post-unblock plans in my UBR (did you read it or just skip to the "opinion voicing" part?) and I've addressed each alleged block reason in a general sense. However, all of us are being asked to critique the Emperor's new clothes. Unsurprisingly, many editors aren't letting the absence of diffs and facts stand in their way of having an opinion and sounding off, here. A correlation has emerged between how the community votes, and whether or not they've noticed that MC has not provided the specific blockable post-TBAN diffs that we have repeatedly tried (unsuccessfully) to pry from MC. If we see these diffs, and they show what MC claims they show, I will not only admit that I'm a terrible person/disruptive/activist editor (and any other awful things contained in the diffs), but I will shout it from the rooftops. Only after we see the diffs, though. Hidden Tempo (talk) 13:43, 17 September 2017 (UTC)
Cbs527 - I'll only address this remark:
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