User talk:Potapt

Hello Potapt,

thanks for your fixes here, don't know how that outdated number of Khwaeng could survive so long. However, for Khwao Sinarin I think you are mistakes - according to the list of recommended english spellings [1] it should be Sinarin, not Sinrin. Or does it have a newer version of that document I am not aware of? andy (talk) 21:14, 22 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Andy. I find the name เขวาสินรินทร์ in the 2003 edition of How to Pronounce and Spell [Thai words] by the Royal Institute. This booklet has specified that its pronunciation should only be เขฺวา-สิน-ริน, romanized as Khwao Sinrin. Also the 2007 transcriptions of Thai political divisions by the Department of Provincial Administration suggests the spelling Khwao Sinrin for the name of both amphoe and tambon. As these two books are more recently released than that list, I think the name might have been corrected without official announcement by now. But your comment may be correct; just now I found in Google the wide use of Sinarin. -- Potapt (talk) 12:50, 23 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That first resource I did not know about before. But I just checked with the recommended Tambon spellings as I know them from DOPA - I think you also refer to this document (ISBN 978-974-7857-04-7) - and you're right that it spells it Sinrin there. That document however has several mistakes or at least inconsistencies (I spotted 133), but sadly I got absolutely no reaction when I sent my list of mistakes there, I mentioned it on my blog long time ago. And even DOPA isn't consistent with the spelling, another list of spellings has it with Sinarin again. The wide-spread use of Sinarin on the web may also be the fault of Wikipedia, as many others simply copy from here. So at least we should list the two possible spellings in the article before we can confirm what is the "correct" spelling. I doubt there was (or will) any official announcement on changing the romanized spellings, at least in the past spellings of districts or subdistricts changed without being announced in the Royal Gazette. andy (talk) 09:07, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think I have seen it before. Maybe it is not important enough to do that because a newer version of announcement will be released someday.-- Potapt (talk) 13:05, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Thanks for adding the IPA for the Amphoe articles. Do you have a source from where you copy them, or do you create them by yourself? Google does not find anything, so it might be a book you use. The reason I ask is because I add the spelling into my XML files [2], and then using my bot to add them to Wikidata. It would be nice to have a reference added in Wikidata, as well as being able to fill my XML without waiting for you to modify the articles here - and even better to have the Tambon as well.

Another vaguely related one you edited recently - Chai Sathan is the name of two Tambon, however strangely this is one of the cases where the book ชื่อจังหวัด อำเภอ/กิ่งอำเภอ ตำบล เขต และแขวง ไทย-อังกฤษ (Thai-English transcription of changwat, amphoe, king amphoe, tambon, khet, and khwang approved by the Royal Institute, ISBN 9789747857047, [3]) contradicts itself - according to that book the Tambon in Chiang Mai is romanized as Chai Sathan, however the one in Nan as Chaiya Sathan. If looking for all occurrences of the word "ไชย", most are romanized as "Chai" except ไชยมนตรี, บ้านใหม่ไชยพจน์ and ไชยราช. andy (talk) 13:02, 2 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I just created them on my own, after having taught myself Thai phonetics for a time until I felt confident that I wouldn't make any (big) mistakes. So, I don't have any sources or reference books to add. In fact, it is not that difficult for a Thai speaker to phonetically transcribe names if they have some knowledge of IPA and Thai phonology, as we don't have to look up every new words in a dictionary to know how to pronounce them. I don't plan to complete the transcription of all of the amphoe in the near future because I have become quite busy lately, but you can ask me to transcribe some names if you want.

As for ไชยสถาน, I am sure those two names are pronounced the same, as [ไช-สะ-ถาน]. I hear the name (of both places) mentioned in different television programs every now and then, and it is pronounced without inserting the /a/ sound between ไชย and สถาน. In this clip, the President of the SAO also repeatedly says [ไช-สะ-ถาน] from around 2:00 minutes on. I know, according to the pronunciation rule of Pali/Sanskrit loanwords, we should pronounce it as [ไช-ยะ-สะ-ถาน], but there are always exceptions when it comes to proper names. Moreover, if the name had to be pronounced with /a/ between those two components, it would be written together as "Chaiyasathan", not "Chaiya Sathan". This rule is not stated in the RTGS, but it is actually observed. The examples are Chai Nat (ชัยนาท), Chai Buri (ชัยบุรี), Chaiyaphum (ชัยภูมิ), Suphan Buri (สุพรรณบุรี), Kanchanaburi (กาญจนบุรี), etc. --Potapt (talk) 19:41, 2 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Hi Potapt. I saw that you changed the image caption from Pha Daeng National Park to Chiang Dao Wildlife Sanctuary. These two nature reserves seem to have an overlap. I am wondering why you prefer mentioning the red-linked wildlife sanctuary over the national park. Regards, - Takeaway (talk) 21:25, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Oh. My mistake. I just read http://www.dnp.go.th/parkreserve/asp/style1/default.asp?npid=167&lg=2 which describes what belongs to the national park, and what belongs to the wildlife sanctuary. I'll make the appropriate changes to the Pha Daeng National Park article. Thanks! - Takeaway (talk) 21:30, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Hello Takeaway. Here are the official announcements for Chiang Dao Wildlife Sanctuary and Pha Daeng National Park. Chiang Dao Wildlife Sanctuary is located south of Pha Daeng National Park, and Doi Chiang Dao (or Doi Luang Chiang Dao) is located in the Sanctuary. --Potapt (talk) 21:40, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! I changed this and this to reflect the information. - Takeaway (talk) 22:00, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I was misled by the incorrect and unsourced sentence "formerly known as Chiang Dao National Park" in the Pha Daeng National Park article. I have now also removed that sentence. - Takeaway (talk) 22:04, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Actually I think almost everyone (including me) was misled. Some photos submitted to Wiki Loves Earth 2016 are ruled out because of this.--Potapt (talk) 22:11, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Oh I forgot to say that that sentence is actually correct, according to this page. --Potapt (talk) 22:16, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It seems very strange that Pha Daeng National Park used to be called Chiang Dao National Park, without actually encompassing Doi Chiang Dao itself. Can you perhaps find more information for it? I am starting to distrust everything now.... ;-) PS I can't read Thai and Google Translate is atrocious. - Takeaway (talk) 22:22, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

What a pity about those Wiki Loves Earth 2016 photos. Google Maps has it wrong too, calling the Wildlife Sanctuary the Chiang Dao National Park. By the way, do you know what happened to the images that used to be in https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Birds_found_in_Pha_Daeng_National_Park? I created that category, and that could only have been because I had discovered images for it. I seem to recall that it contained a lot of files but now it's empty. - Takeaway (talk) 22:22, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose they used the name "Chiang Dao" according to the name of the forest and the district, and they might thought that the different statuses of the two areas would help distinguish them. Unfortunately they wouldn't. I has just moved the bird picture to the Category:Birds found in Chiang Dao Wildlife Sanctuary, according to this change, because its author stated that it was from "Doi Chiang Dao". --Potapt (talk) 22:29, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Aha! No wonder everyone is confused! - Takeaway (talk) 22:30, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. In conclusion, according to that page, the National Park was first created as "Chiang Dao National Park" (Chiang Dao Wildlife Sanctuary had already existed at that time.) Then they had to change the name to "Pha Daeng National Park" because many tourists confused it with the Wildlife Sanctuary. --Potapt (talk) 22:42, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

How about changing Chiang Dao Wildlife Sanctuary into a redirect to Doi Chiang Dao? The overlap is huge. And include a "see also" in the Pha Daeng NP article - Takeaway (talk) 22:48, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure because Doi Chiang Dao is just a place in the Sanctuary. They aren't the same entity. --Potapt (talk) 22:55, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think I will make a map of these two areas to help clarify. It will take some time though. --Potapt (talk) 22:58, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Could you perhaps create a stub? You have enough refs to do so. It can be expanded at a later stage with maps etc. - Takeaway (talk) 23:01, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Yes of course, but I may need your help because my English isn't that good. --Potapt (talk) 23:05, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sure! No problem! And I think that your English is pretty good by the way. I guess you could use the Pha Daeng NP as an example? I have to go sleep now though but I'll keep an eye on it and as soon as the article is there, I'll go through it to see if there are any mistakes. Thanks! - Takeaway (talk) 23:08, 13 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Just saw the article and there are no language mistakes in it that I can see! Thanks for writing it! - Takeaway (talk) 14:29, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

You're welcome. :) --Potapt (talk) 14:33, 14 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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Hello, just noticed your edit. I live in Thailand and more often see it the transliteration as Isaan, probably because the vowel is long (-aa) - number 1 here: http://thai-language.com/ref/vowels Isan with a short vowel in Thai, if it exist (doesn't in my dictionary), would be a completely different word.

Hello. Yes, you are right. The word is pronounced /ʔii¹ saan⁵/, with the long vowels /ii/ and /aa/. (/ii/ in this case is often shortened to be /i/ in colloquial speech.) However, I just followed the Royal Thai General System of Transcription, which doesn't differentiate between short and long vowels. I don't know the reason why. Maybe they don't want to use diacritics in the transcription, or they see that it is difficult to determine the length of vowels in some contexts. --Potapt (talk) 11:07, 8 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

1. My dictionary gives RTGS as "Patong". 2. Since when did WP use RTGS as guidance for article titles? Seligne (talk) 19:25, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

1. I don't know what sort of dictionary it is, but I insist that "Pa Tong" is the correct RTGS spelling. Compare San Pa Tong District. 2. Apparently since a long time ago? For example, here Don Mueang District is used instead of Don Muang District, Si Racha instead of Sri Racha, etc. Last month I requested that Cha-Am District be moved to Cha-am District and nobody opposed it. Anyway, if you disagree with using "Pa Tong" because of whatever reason, please feel free to change it back. --Potapt (talk) 19:42, 18 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

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Here are the narrow transcriptions. The /a/ sounds are open central unrounded vowels [ä], otherwise noted as distinguished phonemes.

1. bilis (bilís): [bɪˈlɪs]
2. danas: [ˈdanas] or [ˈdanäs] (sometimes the stressed "a" sound becomes a front [a] for some speakers)
3. hagibis: [haˈgibis]
4. imbudo: [ɪmˈbudo̞] or imˈbudo̞
5. lupit (lupít): [luˈpɪt] or [luˈpet] (note: the "e" phoneme is a close-mid vowel)
6. malakas (malakás): [malɐˈkas]
7. maliksi (maliksî): [malɪkˈsɪʔ] or {{[-siʔ]}}
8. molave: [moˈlabɛ]
9. simaron: [simaˈɾo̞n]
10. talas: [ˈtalɐs]
11. talim: [tɐˈlim]

I hope this helps. Raku Hachijo (talk) 12:02, 4 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

1. Actually, the [a] and [ɐ] happens between stressed and unstressed syllables.
2. Sorry for the confusion. The [ɪ] is an allophone of [i]. Both are exchangeable and there's no way to predict when to use either form. In formal speech, "bilis" sounds like "bee-LEES" in English but snappier. But in casual and fast speech, native speakers like me tend to turn the /i/ into an [ɪ].
3. Yeah, that's wrong on my part. I pronounce it usually with the glottal stop, but you can pronounce it without one.
4. It's correct. It's pronounced as [hɐgʊˈpit].

Raku Hachijo (talk) 11:33, 5 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]

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Hello Potapt. I am SietsL, who created the wiki articles "Chonburi provincial and local government" and "Phitsanulok provincial and local government". But these wiki articles lack maps from local governments. So I intend to make maps of the local government of Chonburi and Phitsanulok province.
I have noticed that you made maps of "Municipal areas in Samut Prakan, Nakhon Pathom, Nonthaburi, Pathum Thani and Samut Sakhon". My question to you is: how did you get all this information about the municipal areas? Provincial Administrative Organizations (PAO) provide you with digital maps or cards on paper or otherwise?

SietsL (talk) 03:02, 12 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Hello SietsL. To create those maps, I gathered the information from different sources, like the maps in the Royal Gazette announcements establishing the municipalities, the maps from the website of each local administrative organization, and the maps for which I applied in person when I had the chance to visit some LAO offices, etc. I never go to any PAO office and I doubt if they can provide you with this sort of map. All provincial offices of town & city planning sure have a variety of maps, but, from my experiences, the boundary lines of subdivisions shown in their maps don't always follow the boundary lines actually used by LAO offices.

By the way, I am in the process of doing a map of municipal areas for Chon Buri, and I can do one for Phitsanulok too, in case you want it to be in the same format as the ones I have created. However, the accuracy of the boundary lines may not be that perfect, depending on the information that I can obtain online, and I don't think I will show the boundaries and areas of subdistrict administrative organizations in these maps, because I think that would be too busy or complicated especially for the maps of the bigger provinces (in terms of area). --Potapt (talk) 13:26, 12 October 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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I just noticed your recent edits, and have some concerns. Is it necessary to explicitly mark the no audible release, since it is already the default behaviour in Thai pronunciation? The IPA can be used for broad or narrow phonetic transcriptions, and though the Manual of Style doesn't have an explicit recommendation for foreign words (it recommends broad transcriptions for English words), I think broad transcriptions should be quite adequate for Wikipedia articles. Common details can be included in the language-specific IPA guide help pages. --Paul_012 (talk) 07:10, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm fine with or without adding the diacritic. You or other users can remove it if you consider it unnecessary, but it has been used in the tables (not the descriptions) on this article for a long time and it seems like no one cares to remove it. It is also included in Help:IPA/Cantonese and is used on some articles like wok or Shek Kip Mei station, so I thought it would be OK to add it to Help:IPA/Thai too. As it is said here, the difference between broad and narrow is a continuum. The current transcriptions can be even more narrow, with features like velarization, palatalization, nasalization, the central [ä], etc. and I would disagree with adding them here, but, unlike them, the unreleased stops occurs systematically and consistently; they are mentioned in different sources; and I think even native speakers are well aware of them, so they may be important enough to be included in the table.

On Help:IPA/Spanish, the sounds [β, ð, ɣ, ɱ, ŋ, v, z] are only allophones and not distinct phonemes in the variety chosen to represent the language (some of them don't have phonemic status in English either). Some dictionaries replace them with the symbols of their corresponding phonemes <b, d, g, m, n, f, s> in the transcriptions, and, from my experience, if you just pronounced them as [b, d, g, m, n, f, s], respectively, it would sound OK to native speakers' ears (in the sense that you won't get misunderstood because it doesn't change the meanings of words). I also perceive that [s] doesn't always become [z] in general speech, even in the context discussed on the page. So, is it really necessary to show [β, ð, ɣ, ɱ, ŋ, v, z] here, since the broader versions of them do exist? Or is it because these sounds have their own symbols to represent them, while the unreleased stops don't? --Potapt (talk) 18:24, 6 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think I understand your points. My preferred approach is to try to closely reflect the style used in the IPA handbook, which I believe is what was originally done for the articles and the help page. This isn't actually established in any guideline, though I think it would be easier for readers trying to learn the symbols if there's a level of consistency in how we use them. --Paul_012 (talk) 07:52, 7 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This discussion should be moved to Help talk:IPA/Thai. --Khiikiat (talk) 11:00, 7 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I have nothing further to say for the moment, so I'm going to leave this issue to whoever wants to discuss more and I will stop adding the diacritic to the transcriptions for a while to see if there is any change. --Potapt (talk) 11:36, 7 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but they are still short vowels. And the same can be said for ◌ะ ◌ิ ◌ุ, which you have included. It seems illogical to me. (For example, ปะ, ติ, and บุ are all followed by /ʔ/.) Khiikiat (talk) 22:43, 9 February 2020 (UTC).[reply]

Yes, because it is not always predictable. All of the examples you added are pronounced with /ʔ/ while /i/ as in บริเวณ or /u/ as in บุหรี่ can be pronounced either with or without /ʔ/, even in formal situations. --Potapt (talk) 22:54, 9 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've added a footnote. I hope this is an acceptable compromise. Khiikiat (talk) 00:05, 10 February 2020 (UTC).[reply]

"เ◌ะ, แ◌ะ, โ◌ะ, เ◌าะ, ◌ึ, and เ◌อะ are always followed by /ʔ/." Then, they are /eʔ/, /ɛʔ/, /oʔ/, /ɔʔ/, and /ɯʔ/, which apparently are not true monophthongs, so I don't understand why we have to put them there in the first place. We don't add /iaʔ/, /uaʔ/, and /ɯaʔ/ to the diphthong section because they are not true diphthongs either. --Potapt (talk) 00:38, 10 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Hi. I've recently started a move discussion for Thai province-centre towns, which you might be interested in. It's at Talk:Amnat Charoen#Requested move 26 January 2021. --Paul_012 (talk) 16:29, 4 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I'm Mattythewhite. I noticed that you added or changed content in an article, Sergio Agüero, but you didn't provide a reliable source. It's been removed and archived in the page history for now, but if you'd like to include a citation and re-add it, please do so. You can have a look at the tutorial on citing sources. If you think I made a mistake, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you. Mattythewhite (talk) 23:34, 1 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if adding the IPA transcription to the names from the languages with phonemic orthography needs sources... lol. --Potapt (talk) 23:39, 1 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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The names of Bang Chan, Khlong Sam Wa; Bang Duan, Phasi Charoen; Bang O, Bang Phlat; Khuha Sawan, Phasi Charoen; Krathum Rai, Nong Chok; Nong Bon, Prawet; Phlapphla, Wang Thonglang and Tha Raeng, Bang Khen don't seem to be ambiguous within Bangkok. Should the articles be renamed to Bang Chan, Bangkok, etc.? --Paul_012 (talk) 17:26, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I agree. It's just that I created these pages using links from the List of tambon in Thailand articles and didn't pay much attention to it at that time. --Potapt (talk) 17:32, 10 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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I began thinking of this following your edit here. I've started a discussion topic at WT:WikiProject Thailand#Romanizations/pronunciation guides for Thai names that are loanwords. --Paul_012 (talk) 12:41, 8 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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Hello Potapt,

What is the IPA of นวดกษัย? Is the RTGS of นวดกษัย nuat kasai?

--BigBullfrog (talk) 19:25, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello,

The IPA transcription according to Help:IPA/Thai is [nûat kā.sǎj], and yes, its RTGS transcription is nuat kasai. Potapt (talk) 19:42, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you! Your answer is very helpful, it has been used and will help more people. --BigBullfrog (talk) 23:53, 27 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]