User talk:Rotary Engine

Have you edited Wikipedia under different accounts or IP addresses in the past?
Are you an employee of the government of the United States (military included, of course) or have any relationship to the topic of the Senkaku Islands article that might be deemed to represent a WP:COI?--Ubikwit ^連絡 _{見学/迷惑} 08:30, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Bizarre! Suggest: WP:AGF WP:DNB - Ryk72 (talk) 09:46, 26 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Don't bite the newcomers? You don't sound like a new editor at all; please don't pretend. STSC (talk) 07:23, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

An accusation of competence? - Ryk72 (talk) 20:48, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

FFS! COI, SPA, now SPI. Muppet?! - Ryk72 (talk) 20:48, 27 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

!COI

Hi Users Ubikwit & STSC,

Please accept my apology for not having formally responded to your questions above prior to now. I admit that I was a little taken aback by the questions; and did feel that there was at least in part an assumption that I was acting in bad faith.

In the hope of allaying your fears, and assuring you that I am not acting in bad faith, I confirm that:

• I have not edited Wikipedia under different accounts or IP addresses in the past. (I am a genuine new user).
• I am not an employee of any government, including the US Government (military included); the Governments of China (PRC & ROC); or the Government of Japan.
• I am not a citizen of any country that makes a claim to the Senkaku Islands.
• I do not have an ethnic or racial background which includes any ethnicity or race from a country which makes a claim to the Senkaku Islands.
• I have familiarised myself with the policy at WP:COI, and do not believe that I have a conflict of interest.

and,

• I am in no way affiliated with any other Wikipedia user. (including Phoenix7777, on whom an WP:SPI[1] was raised by STSC)

I accept that a new user entering into a contentious discussion as their first update on Wikipedia must have looked suspicious to you; and this would have given you cause for concern. I accept that this may not have been the best choice for my first updates on Wikipedia.

I respectfully ask that you assume good faith, even though our views on the topic of the discussion may not be in alignment.

I respectfully ask that you also consider the Wikipedia essays located at: Newbies aren't always clueless and Don't be quick to assume that someone is a sockpuppet, including the section at Brand new accounts are not single-purpose accounts.

Note: if there is an issue with this update, please let me know; I will be happy to modify or remove as required.

Regards, - Ryk72 (talk) 06:19, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

To User:STSC

Hi User STSC,

I have struck through the parts of my previous update[2], above, which contained:

1. an abbreviated profanity, expressing exasperation.
2. a link to the Wikipedia page for "Muppet"[3]; intended to express a view that your behaviour was somewhat foolish.

I accept that these parts of the update were not helpful and conducive to an improved dialogue between us, and may have been better left unsaid.

I acknowledge that at the time the update was made, that I was frustrated by a series of actions by users Ubikwit, Lvhis and yourself; as I felt these actions carried an implication that I was not acting in good faith; and I felt that the actions appeared to be at least in some part "playing the man, not the ball".

I further acknowledge that my frustration at this time does not excuse my use of profanity (however obscured) or of a comment on the quality of your actions.

I apologise for any offence which I might have caused to you or to any other Wikipedia user. I hope that we will find ways to better work together in the future.

Note: if there is an issue with this update, please let me know; I will be happy to modify or remove as required.

(cf. [4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12])

Regards, - Ryk72 (talk) 06:54, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Updated: - Ryk72 (talk) 13:44, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Collapsed: - Ryk72 (talk) 11:51, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

To enforce an arbitration decision,

you have been blocked indefinitely from editing. If you believe this block is unjustified, please read the guide to appealing arbitration enforcement blocks and then appeal your block using the instructions there. Secret ^account 03:32, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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Reminder to administrators: In March 2010, ArbCom adopted a procedure prohibiting administrators "from reversing or overturning (explicitly or in substance) any action taken by another administrator pursuant to the terms of an active arbitration remedy, and explicitly noted as being taken to enforce said remedy, except: (a) with the written authorization of the Committee, or (b) following a clear, substantial, and active consensus of uninvolved editors at a community discussion noticeboard (such as WP:AN or WP:ANI). If consensus in such discussions is hard to judge or unclear, the parties should submit a request for clarification on the proper page." Administrators who reverse an arbitration enforcement block, such as this one, without clear authorisation will be summarily desysopped.

This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).

Rotary Engine (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

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Request reason:

Hi, Hopefully I have the process right; please excuse me if I do not. The reason for the block from the block log entry is "Clearly not here to contribute to building the encyclopedia: obvious single purpose account/sock here to disrupt a page under ArbCom sactions", so I hope to address those concerns. W.r.t Sock Puppetry: I am a long time consumer of Wikipedia, but not a previous user/editor; and have not edited Wikipedia under different accounts or IP addresses in the past. I am not anyone's puppet; sock, meat or otherwise. Nor do I believe that I have a conflict of interest contrary to WP:COI which would require disaclosure. But I am not sure how to prove these without privacy implications. Part of the issue may be that I appear to be more competent than a usual novice user/editor; I am familiar with HTML & other markup languages which may explain this, and the "Cheatsheet" is really quite useful. I also did a lot of research on Wikipedia principles, policies & guidelines prior to making any talk page edits; as I wanted to be useful, rather than uninformed. I accept and acknowledge that the situation may have been more easily resolved if I had made a more direct response to Ubikwit's initial "COI?" question on my Talk page; but confess to being stunned by the suggestion that I might be a US Government shill. I feel that the question did not assume good faith. W.r.t Disruption: While I have participated in a WP:RM discussion, I have not made any edits to the Wikipedia page itself, and did not intend to do so while the discussion was in progress. I am not here to be intentionally disruptive and don't believe that I have engaged in any of the behaviours listed under "Disruption" on WP:Blocking_policy, but am happy to address any of these separately if desired. I also do not believe that I have gone outside the suggested "Rules of Engagement" on the talk page; with the possible exception of having provided long updates; but that it what I understood the "Survey" part of the WP:RM to be for, reasoned articulation of different views. I apologise if I was wrong in this regard. I believe that my latest update[13] explicitly suggests a way forward, suggests changes to the article text which might address concerns of bias, and calls for a general movement towards consensus. I also suggested[14] a potential compromise position for the "Senkaku Islands dispute" page (but no-one seems keen to comment). I think all of these are positive things. I also did a lot of research on the history of the discussion prior to making any talk page edits; as I wanted to be useful, rather than uninformed. My involvement in this particular discussion was prompted by two comments, by Benlisquare[15] and 1zeroate[16], each calling for input to the discussion from new editors. I was hoping to provide such input, and ask you accept that I am acting in good faith. I attest that I am WP:HERE, but that I have only been here for a short time. My first 3 days as a Wikipedia editor have been interesting, to say the least. :) Note: I have just found some alternate reasoning for the block as listed elsewhere are "blocked indefinitely for general disruption to the Senkaku Islands page move discussion"[17] or "Update I blocked Ryk72 indefinitely, and considering the page is under ArbCom sanctions and his only edits was basically to disrupt the closure of the Senkaku Islands page move, the block falls under the arbitration decision of the case."[18] I am happy to address these explicitly, but tend to think that they are predicated, at least in part, on the assumption that I am a puppet. Regards, Ryk72 (talk) 07:10, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Decline reason:

I find the evidence and rationales provided by Secret and others to be pretty sound. I suggest you email the Arbitration Committee's mailing list if you want this to be examined further ([email protected]), but I don't see compelling reasons to unblock. only (talk) 09:30, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

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If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

Request for Clarification

Hi Admins Secret & only, I apologise for the interruption and thank you in advance for any reply that you might give.

I am hoping that you might provide some additional information which will assist me to make either a better unblock request or appeal to the Arbitration Committee.

I am still a little unclear as to what exactly I have done wrong. The reasons given in various places are (my underlining)

03:32, 28 December 2013 Secret (talk | contribs) blocked Ryk72 (talk | contribs) (account creation blocked) with an expiry time of indefinite (Clearly not here to contribute to building the encyclopedia: obvious single purpose account/sock here to disrupt a page under ArbCom sactions)

Ryk72 (talk · contribs) blocked indefinitely for general disruption to the Senkaku Islands page move discussion [31] Secret account 03:46, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

From glancing at the discussion, this seems to be retaliation as Phoenix777 has the opposite argument of Lvhis. More of a WP:BOOMERANG here and should be closed. I'm more worried about Ryk72 (talk · contribs) who clearly ain't a new user. Secret account 03:24, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Update I blocked Ryk72 indefinitely, and considering the page is under ArbCom sanctions and his only edits was basically to disrupt the closure of the Senkaku Islands page move, the block falls under the arbitration decision of the case. I don't see any evidence that Phoenix777 is disruptive enough for a sanction, and like Sandstein said, the closure of the move discussion will make the request moot. Secret account 03:42, 28 December 2013 (UTC)

Would you please let me know what exactly I have done that is disruptive, and what evidence is used in support of that allegation/finding? I am simply looking to understand, so that I can improve if needed. (If you could reference policy using one or more "WP:xxx" tags that would be best; as it would make it easiest for me to find the policies).

The WP:BLOCK page lists several actions which might be considered disruptive: vandalism; gross incivility; harassment; spamming; edit warring, especially breaches of the three-revert rule; breaching the policies or guidelines, especially the sock puppetry policy; attempts to coerce actions of editors through threats of actions outside the Wikipedia processes, whether onsite or offsite. If one or more of these, could you please let me know which; and what evidence is used to support the allegation/finding?

The WP:NOTHERE page lists the following as "indications that a user may not be here to build an encyclopedia": Narrow self interest and/or promotion; Focusing on Wikipedia as a social networking site; General pattern of disruptive behavior; Treating editing as a battleground; Dishonest and gaming behaviors; Little or no interest in working collaboratively; Major or irreconcilable conflict of attitude or intention; Inconsistent long-term agenda; Having a long-term or "extreme" history that suggests a marked lack of value for the project's actual aims and methods. Similarly, if I have been found to have breached one or more of these, could you please let me know which; and what evidence is used to support the allegation/finding?

Would you please also let me know what evidence is used to support the conjecture that I "clearly ain't a new user"; as this appears to be central to the issue?

Thanks again for taking the time to read this, and for any response that you might give. Greatly appreciated. And apologies again for taking up your time.

Regards, - Ryk72 (talk) 20:40, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Updated to include WP:NOTHERE reference - Ryk72 (talk) 22:06, 28 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Request for Clarification - Procedural Questions

Hi Admins Secret & only, I apologise for the interruption and thank you in advance for any reply that you might give.

Having done some additional research at WP:AE, WP:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Senkaku Islands &c, I am now hoping that you can clear up some policy & procedural questions. Please note that I do under stand that Wikipedia is not a bureaucracy, and am not trying to "lawyer" my way out of the current block, simply to better understand it.

A. The block notice on my Talk page suggests that the block is "To enforce an arbitration decision, you have been blocked indefinitely from editing". The block log and "Log of blocks, bans, and restrictions" at the bottom of the Case align with this.

however;

B. The "Discretionary sanctions" section of the same page suggests that "Any uninvolved administrator may levy restrictions as an arbitration enforcement action on users editing in this topic area, after an initial warning." (my underline) The Discretionary Sanctions page also suggests that "Discretionary sanctions may be imposed by any uninvolved administrator after giving due warning;" (my underline again), and "Warnings should be clear and unambiguous, link to the decision authorising the sanctions, identify misconduct and advise how the editor may mend their ways;". No warning was provided. If it had been, I feel that I would have heeded it. In any case I would have been afforded an opportunity to explain myself.

and;

C. The "Enforcement by block" section of the same page suggests that "Should any user subject to a restriction or ban imposed in this case violate that restriction or ban, that user may be blocked, initially for up to one month, and then with blocks increasing in duration to a maximum of one year, with the ban or topic ban clock restarting at the end of the block." (my underline), and the "Log of blocks, bans, and restrictions" details a number of previous blocks, ranging from 1 to 12 months in duration. The current indefinite block seems perhaps a little disproportionate in comparison.

also;

D. The Arbitration Enforcement which lead to the block did not include me as a "User against whom enforcement is requested". If it had done, I believe that I would have been notified of the impending block, and would have responded. I believe that the block is collateral damage from the request for arbitration enforcement against another user. If an AE had been raised including me, I believe that I would have been afforded an opportunity to explain myself.

Question 1: Can you please confirm that the block was made to enforce an arbitration decision; and, if so, that the right procedures were generally followed? (I am happy with a general alignment to the process; I am simply trying to understand the reasoning behind the block).

The alternative is that the block actually made on the presumption that I am a "sock puppet", or otherwise acting in bad faith. If so, this might explain the lack of warnings, and the indefinite nature of the block.

Question 2: Can you please confirm that the block was made on the basis that I am believed to be a "sock puppet" or otherwise acting in bad faith; and, if so, if the easiest remedy is for me to satisfy Admin Secret that I am a genuine new user? (due to the "ArbCom" nature of the ban requiring they provide a personal reversal)

Please note that none of these questions are intended to imply that anyone has acted inappropriately or other than in good faith. I believe that you have both worked to fulfill your duties as Admins entirely in good faith, and based on your true and honest beliefs.

Thanks again for taking the time to read this, and for any response that you might give. Greatly appreciated. And apologies again for taking up your time; and for the length of the update.

Note: as above, if there is an issue with this or any other update, please let me know; I will be happy to modify or remove as required.

- Ryk72 (talk) 10:36, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I'll let User:Secret and/or the ArbCom (as I suggested in the unblock decline) handle this. Good luck to you. only (talk) 11:44, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Admin only,

Thank you for taking the time to respond; for your well wishes; and especially for your advice as to how I might best proceed; it is greatly appreciated.

I am hoping that the issue can be resolved prior to an appeal to ArbCom. It seems troublesome to bother so many people for what is, from my perspective, a simple misunderstanding.

Hopefully, Admin Secret will shortly provide an update which answers the "Request for Clarification"s, above. I am not sure that I can make a clear & concise appeal to ArbCom without some clarity on some of these points. If he does not, would it be possible for you to provide some information on "the evidence and rationales provided by Secret and others" that you reviewed and found to be "pretty sound". (Please note that I am not asking you to reverse the block; as I understand that this can only be done by Secret or ArbCom themselves; per policy. I am also not questioning your decision, which I understand to have been made in good faith)

Thanks again, and good luck in your endeavours as well.

Note: if there is an issue with this update, please let me know; I will be happy to modify or remove as required.

Regards, - Ryk72 (talk) 07:18, 30 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Unblocked[edit]

This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who accepted the request.

Rotary Engine (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

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Request reason:

In line with WP:AEBLOCK, I would like the reviewing administrator to initiate a community discussion about an appeal against the current block. I have included an arbitration enforcement appeal template below. If possible, would the reviewing administrator please also provide notification to User:Secret, the Admin imposing the sanction. Many thanks, - Ryk72 (talk) 20:46, 5 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Accept reason:

This does not appear to have been an appropriate use of an arbitration enforcement block. This should be seen as neither an endorsement or a condemnation of your previous behavior, the block was simply improper on its face and as such has been lifted. Welcome back. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:00, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• I would add that this was an unusual situation In that in the fairly brief period of time since the block was issued the blocking admin has given up their administrative tools. It seems we had no procedure in place for this specific situation, which is unique to arbitration enforcement. Given the out-of-process nature of the block and your very limited history here prior to its issuance it seemed unfair to ask you to sit here and wait while we figured out what the procedure should be, so I took the liberty of unblocking you on my own authority as an administrator and arbitrator. This is therefore not an "official" action of the committee itself. Beeblebrox (talk) 02:08, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Beeblebrox, Firstly, a massive thank you for the unblock; it is greatly appreciated, especially as you note that it is on your own authority as an administrator and arbitrator.

I also understand the notes that you have here on: not an "official" action of the committee, and neither an endorsement or a condemnation or previous behaviour. Consequently, I will be consciously staying away from contentious topics for a good while, and I remain happy to answer any questions from the ArbCom members that might arise, should they wish to implement something more official.

Thanks again for your actions, your consideration, & your time. - Ryk72 (talk) 02:55, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Email to ArbCom[edit]

The following is the full text of an email to ArbCom, requesting a review of the current block

Subject: User:Ryk72 & WP:AEBLOCK

Esteemed Wikipedia Arbitration Committee Members,

I am hopeful that you might help with the current block on my Wikipedia account, "Ryk72"; which is listed as being due to an ArbCom decision.

In line with WP:AEBLOCK, the block can only be lifted by the admin imposing the block - unfortunately this admin has resigned from Wikipedia, and so is not able to lift the block themselves. (cf. User:Secret )

I have also explored the alternative method, through an unblock request asking for a community discussion - unfortunately, this request has not yet been picked up.

Reasons provided for the block are variously "Clearly not here to contribute to building the encyclopedia: obvious single purpose account/sock here to disrupt a page under ArbCom sactions" (sic), "blocked indefinitely for general disruption to the Senkaku Islands page move discussion" or "Update I blocked Ryk72 indefinitely, and considering the page is under ArbCom sanctions and his only edits was basically to disrupt the closure of the Senkaku Islands page move, the block falls under the arbitration decision of the case."

While I maintain that I did not intentionally set out to disrupt the discussion, merely to participate in it; I have had the benefit of some good coaching from other Wikipedia editors ( User:74.192.84.101 & User:Yngvadottir ), and understand how my actions may have been construed as being disruptive; and, more importantly, how I can act better to ensure that the situation does not occur in future.

For additional details, please see my Talk page, User_talk:Ryk72. I will include a copy of this email there, but please let me know if this is an issue. I will be happy to remove or modify as required.

Please also let me know if you need any more information. I am happy to answer any questions that you might have.

Thanks again for your time in reading this; appreciate all your efforts in ensuring the smooth running of Wikipedia.

Regards,

Ryk

Note: if there is an issue with this update, please let me know; I will be happy to modify or remove as required.

- Ryk72 (talk) 00:44, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Updated: section order / location change only - Ryk72 (talk) 10:32, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Collapsed: - Ryk72 (talk) 20:38, 23 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

To help determine any such consensus, involved editors may make brief statements in separate sections but should not edit the section for discussion among uninvolved editors. Editors are normally considered involved if they are in a current dispute with the sanctioning or sanctioned editor, or have taken part in disputes (if any) related to the contested enforcement action. Administrators having taken administrative actions are not normally considered involved for this reason alone (see WP:UNINVOLVED).

Appealing user

Ryk72 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log) – Ryk72 (talk) 20:46, 5 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sanction being appealed

Block, Indefinite, imposed at WP:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive144#Phoenix7777, logged at

Administrator imposing the sanction

Secret (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)

Notification of that administrator

The appealing editor is asked to notify the administrator who made the enforcement action of this appeal, and then to replace this text with a diff of that notification. The appeal may not be processed otherwise. If a block is appealed, the editor moving the appeal to this board should make the notification.

Statement by Ryk72[edit]

Reasons provided for the block are variously "Clearly not here to contribute to building the encyclopedia: obvious single purpose account/sock here to disrupt a page under ArbCom sactions" (sic), "blocked indefinitely for general disruption to the Senkaku Islands page move discussion"[19] or "Update I blocked Ryk72 indefinitely, and considering the page is under ArbCom sanctions and his only edits was basically to disrupt the closure of the Senkaku Islands page move, the block falls under the arbitration decision of the case."[20]

Note: I have made a number of attempts to contact the Admin imposing the sanction for clarification[21][22][23]; but the Admin has unfortunately announced their retirement from Wikipedia.[24][25]

Reasons for the appeal are:

1. The indefinite block appears based in part on the assumption that I am a previous editor of Wikipedia[26] (and therefore this account is believed to be a "sock puppet"). I maintain that I am not, and would welcome an opportunity to prove this.
2. Without an assumption of "sock puppetry", While, the actions were not intentionally disruptive in & of themselves; participation in a discussion is not equivalent to disruption; I accept & acknowledge that my updates were poorly formatted, and should have been better: a) to not give an impression of !voting more than once; b) to reduce the length of the updates (by rewording or putting the reasoning in a (collapse) or similar). I am now better educated on Wikipedia processes and markup; and should not make these same mistakes again. I apologise for any confusion that these updates may have caused and for any disruption to the WP:RM process. (Diffs of all 4 updates are:[27][28][29][30])
3. Process for discretionary sanctions suggests clear & unambiguous warnings should be provided; no warning was given.
4. Block imposed is outside the 1 year limit for discretionary sanctions; and is manifestly excessive.
5. Sanction does not serve to protect the encyclopedia from damage or disruption. (see WP:BLOCK)

I do accept & acknowledge that participating in a discussion on a highly contested topic might not have been the best place for my first updates on Wikipedia. I also accept that having someone new enter this discussion must have seemed suspicious; and that the Admin imposing the sanction acted in good faith, based on the information available to them at the time. However, I maintain that we have achieved the wrong outcome.

I also accept & acknowledge that I reacted when provoked (cf. User_talk:Ryk72#COI?), and that this would likely have exacerbated the situation. I resolve to make every attempt to remain calm in the future.

If the block is lifted, I will be looking to contribute in the ways suggested at WP:Community_Portal#Todo and Special:GettingStarted and at User_talk:Ryk72#Things to do / look at:.

I humbly request that the block be lifted, in line with WP:AEBLOCK; and that the following pages be updated to reflect this: WP:Arbitration/Requests/Enforcement/Archive144#Phoenix7777, WP:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Senkaku_Islands#Log of blocks and bans

For additional information please see my Talk page: - Ryk72 (talk) 20:46, 5 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Updated - Ryk72 (talk) 03:27, 10 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Statement by Secret[edit]

Statement by (involved editor 1)[edit]

Statement by (involved editor 2)[edit]

Discussion among uninvolved editors about the appeal by Ryk72[edit]

Result of the appeal by Ryk72[edit]

This section is to be edited only by uninvolved administrators. Comments by others will be moved to the sections above.

Collapsed: - Ryk72 (talk) 20:40, 23 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome back, Ryk72[31]

Looking for an easy way to get involved? Just choose one of the three options below, and we'll give you a suggested article to edit.

Add Links

Connect Wikipedia articles together.

Improve Clarity

Simplify or reword sentences.

Fix Spelling & Grammar

The easiest way to get started!

Note: if there is an issue with this update, please let me know; I will be happy to modify or remove as required.

- Ryk72 (talk) 11:00, 29 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Collapsed: - Ryk72 (talk) 12:03, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Explicitly includes the following respondents to the recent WP:RM: Lvhis, PBS, AjaxSmack, Jonathunder, Kendall-K1, Qwyrxian, Benlisquare, Lssrn45, Brian Dell, STSC, SnowFire, Phoenix7777, Oda Mari, Shrigley, Ubikwit, Blueboar

Respected Fellow Wikipedia Editors,

It has come to my realisation that there is an unfortunate side effect to my involvement in the recent Requested Move for the Senkaku Islands page et al, and subsequent block; on the basis that I am believed to have been a previous editor of Wikipedia (and therefore this account is believed to be a "sock puppet").

I realise that I have not only opened myself to these accusations; but also that I have made each of you, as participants involved in the WP:RM, 'open to the accusation that you might have acted inappropriately in an attempt to influence the discussion.

I would therefore, like to categorically and unreservedly state that:

• no other editors involved in the recent WP:RM discussion on the Talk:Senkaku_Islands page is me;
• no previous editors of the Talk:Senkaku_Islands page et al (whether blocked, banned or otherwise) is me;
• no other Wikipedia account of any kind is me.
• no other Wikipedia editor is known to me outside of Wikipedia.

Please feel free to link to this update if & as required; especially if any accusations are made.

I would further like to explicitly extend my most sincere apologies to Phoenix7777, who has already been the subject of such accusations. However they might have been intentioned, these accusations have no grounding in reality.

Note: this update's purpose is only to proclaim the innocence of other users, including those explicitly listed above.

Note: if there is an issue with this update, please let me know; I will be happy to modify or remove as required.

Best regards - Ryk72 (talk) 11:01, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi! I've always thought your indef. block was too harsh. Did you see this? I try to work for you. You can ask for an admin help by using this template. Oda Mari (talk) 15:37, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi: as advised above, the recommended avenue of block appeal where Arbcom sanctions are involved is to e-mail Arbcom at: [email protected] . Reminding you of that option. Yngvadottir (talk) 22:20, 2 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  You mentioned above that you were worried about privacy-concerns, and that is perfectly fine. Nobody here is going to try and find out your real-life identity, see WP:DOX. As you may have noticed, there are some folks very antsy about WP:COI; that's not your fault, it is from recent events that have nothing to do with you, involving wiki-politics and real-world PR firms and all sorts of other unsavory stuff. Most folks that edit wikipedia, even including admins, have very little access to the deepest innards of the webservers. For transparency reasons, almost all stuff that happens on-wiki (meaning talkpages and articles and such) happens out in the open. This is even true for most business of the foundation, which handles donations and that sort of thing.

  The exceptions are very few. When you donate to wikipedia, and enter your credit-card number, that does not get posted here on your talkpage, thankfully.  :-)   Also, there is some networking-data, which is obscured from all but a few folks, who work in the WP:CU "department" here, and generally only a few folks (like a couple hundred maybe) have such access, to prevent abuse and/or privacy breach.

  Finally, as has been mentioned before, in some cases there is a special bunch of a dozen to a dozen-and-a-half folks called ArbCom... this name is historical, and the gory details are quite gory, but basically ArbCom has the unenviable job of being the appeals-court of wikipedia. They have indirect access (or in some cases direct access maybe? not sure really) to the webserver innards. They are elected by the most-active wikipedians, and in fact, there was just an election where 923 votes were placed, and the top folks got two-year terms. When you email them information, it is kept secret, and is not used on-wiki. Of course, the *email* itself might be unencrypted, if you are worried about privacy from your ISP or from your local government, please let me know. ArbCom members can be trusted not to reveal your info, generally speaking, and folks like User:only and User:Secret can take ArbCom at their word, if they say that you've emailed them and everything was a-okay. You don't have to email them, possibly we can figure out something else if necessary. It's the usual process... but as always, WP:IAR applies, and if the usual process is improper or inadequate, we can work out something else.

  Anyhoo, long story short... welcome to wikipedia!  :-)   If you're willing, I'll walk you through the steps to getting unblocked, and answer your questions. This prolly won't happen instantly, Rome wasn't built in a day, but you seem a fine person, it would be sad to lose a new editor to a false-positive. Hope this helps. I'll skim your info, and check back in a bit. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 01:07, 3 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Collapsed: - Ryk72 (talk) 09:33, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi,

I just wanted to express my gratitude to those people who have noticed my current situation and have offered their assistance. I realise that everyone's time is valuable; and I am humbled & honoured that you have taken your time to help.

Fellow editors Yngvadottir, Amakuru, 74 and especially Oda Mari - Thank you for drawing attention to my situation, to my previous Talk page entries, above; and making sure that the right people were made aware of them. I really appreciate it.

Likewise thank you for providing advise on how I should best proceed; it is fantastic to be able to rely on the value of your collective experience with Wikipedia.

I'd also like to thank Admins only & Nick for responding on the various talk pages & for any work that they have done or are doing in following up the reasoning behind the block.

I'd like to recognise the valuable work that all Wikipedia's Admins put in to ensure that things run as smoothly as possible; for what is essentially a volunteer job, it cannot be an easy one. I notice that User:Secret has retired from Wikipedia, but I'd like to thank him for putting his hand up to do the Admin job while he was here, and for the hours that he put into the role.

Finally, it looks like all roads are leading towards sending an email to ArbCom; which I am working on now. Hopefully I can put my case forward clearly, concisely & convincingly.

As "74" suggests, "Rome wasn't built in a day", so it might take a while, but I hope to be back making a contribution sooner rather than later.

I think I'm likely to find myself "once bitten; twice shy" and stick to less controversial topics for a little while. Instead, I think it better to take the suggestion at Special:GettingStarted and do some grammatical or spelling clean-up &/or linking.

Thanks again; collectively & as individuals, you've managed to restore my faith quite a lot.

Regards, - Ryk72 (talk) 12:04, 4 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Ryk72: thanks for this message and good luck with your future Wiki career, whenever and however that may develop, according to ArbCom. And good luck with the WP:WIKIGNOME work - that sounds like a great place to start, as it's certainly highly useful for the project but unlikely to be mired in any controversy! Thanks  — Amakuru (talk) 17:02, 4 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Collapsed: - Ryk72 (talk) 09:33, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hello again Ryk... are you a sucker for work possibly interested in some outside suggestions that I might make, for articles?  :-)     Also, are you still interested in chatting about your questions above, regarding the rationale for blocks, and the ways of the wikiverse, and all that stuff? I'm happy to try and answer, as best I can. Yngvadottir knows more, but is out sick today. Hope this helps, please feel free to move it out of the way if needed. But I made it small and unobtrusive, see? <grin>   Hope this helps, thanks for your serene attitude. — 74.192.84.101 (talk) 01:46, 7 January 2014 (UTC) [reply]

Hello again "74". I am a su^H^Hinterested in your suggestions for articles; and even willing to spend some time drafting up the edits themselves. I would not, of course, be able to place any edits or details of any suggested changes on Wikipedia itself; while blocked. And yes, I am still interested in chatting about the questions above, rationale for blocks, etc. T.b.h. I had hoped to hear something direct from the horse's mouth; but that is now looking unlikely. I would definitely value your insight. I hope Ynvgadottir is better soon; please forward my regards. Serenity is a choice; seething seems counterproductive. - Ryk72 (talk) 22:29, 7 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

For work, there is an article Andersneld is working on, that could use some copy-editing, see pointers on my own and Yngvadottir's talkpages. If you want to make some suggested fixes to Bob Huff (see my talkpage and the Billbird2111 user-talkpage), that would be helpful. If you are *really* a glutton for punishment, your fresh eyes on WT:Articles_for_creation/DUROMAC(M) SDN BHD#DuRoMac would be helpful, and may give you some bad habits if you pay too close attention. For an easy-peasy cleanup-job, see WT:Articles_for_creation/Sapience which *was* trying to be about the software-product, but needs to be converted into an article about the software-corporation, de-pufferized, and then moved into mainspace. There are *plenty* of sources for that one. A bit more challenging, since it is already in not-too-terrible-shape, is the article on WT:Articles_for_creation/OrderUp. Feel free to totally ignore all of these suggestions, WP:REQUIRED applies as always. But rather than go hunting for copy-edits in mainspace, I would urge you consider contributing to the AfC queue (which may soon become the WP:Drafts mechanism) to help get new articles up and running. There are a ton of them.

  As for answers, again, the same sort of thing applies... WP:REQUIRED is also for admins, although there is a pretty strong tradition that they should answer good-faith questions. Not being inside their minds, I cannot give you a definitive answer(s), but I can try and see. First, of course, we should start a new section. This is the "future work" section. Add any suggestions of mine that you take a hankering to, into your own list above. I'll go ahead and split this meta-discussion-about-work, into a separate section of your actual list-of-work. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 20:53, 9 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi "74", Many thanks for the suggestions; looks like there is a lot to be done. I have looked over Andersneld's article submission, and already made some suggestions; in a new section below. I will look over the other suggestions soon.

NB: Checking Bob Huff & Billbird2111 pages, there appears to be some controversy here; but I am still prepared to "be bold", so will see what I can do.

I also had a couple of questions:

• You mentioned the @Ryk72 mechanism to call attention to anything that I might update on my Talk page - do you have a reference for how this mechanism works?
• How / where can I find a list of things on the AfC queue?

Update: I'm also familiarising myself with: WP:Article_development, WP:Writing_better_articles, WP:Referencing_for_beginners & WP:Sources. Please let me know if you can suggest additional pages that I should also look at.

Thanks again for the suggestions. Really do appreciate all your efforts.

You are a very good egg, "74". - Ryk72 (talk) 22:23, 10 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Updated - Ryk72 (talk) 00:12, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You can do this trick...

{{u|Yngvadottir}}

which looks like

Yngvadottir

and is not much different than

User:Yngvadottir

Under the hood there is a magic echolocation which sends them a sekrit mehssij.

  Doesn't work for IPs, you'll have to get unblocked for that part, which basically necessitates manually visiting the anon's talkpage, and leaving them a note. There are templates for such things, see Template:talkback for instance, which is invoked by placing something like {{tb}} onto the user's talkpage you wish to leave the template. Stuff inside the curlies is 'transcluded' magically, and although many are complex, there are also simple ones like {{done}} which prints  Done.

  As for pages to look at, I'm old-school about my advice. Skim this. WP:5P. If you want to create an article, see WP:42. Definitely recommend WP:IMAGINE. For really deep philosophy, see WP:UIAR, and apologies in advance for the poetry. Wikipedia *has* a bunch of rules, but they are not the important thing. WP:! + WP:-D + WP:IAR. Although to be perfectly frank, such methodology can get you into deep doo-doo nowadays, so I recommend you go with your natural inclination Lawful Good, and work your way gradually into the zen of encyclopedia maintenance.

  If you want the referencing to be super-cool™, then you can look at my crazy curlies inside Andersneld's junior high article. But really, just saying <ref>http://www.wsj.com/foo/baz/qux</ref> is TOTALLY GOOD ENOUGH, because sooner or later a boht or a wikiGnome will come along, and fix up the referencing-format to be beautiful and standardized and date-formatted and whatnot. An advanced trick is the Minsky moment article where I messed with deadurl=yes and friends, which let you make your refs bulletproof by archiving the page-contents. You should prolly use archive.org and/or webcitation for that purpose, the other popular one is Officially Taboo.

  Yes, the Billbird situation is a bit controversial, but only for people getting paid to be there. Since you cannot edit directly, it's hard for you to make any mistakes whatsoever. Suggest something useful, then flag down the nearest editor who looks reasonable, and ask them to make the edit for you. Billbird should not be making edits direct to article-space, but me or Yngvadottir (or that llllaaaaaazzzzyyyy Hafspajen who justs sits around gazing at imagefiles most of the day :-)   or most other folks can help. OrangeMike is familiar with the Billbird situation as well as politics in general, so worth getting their look-see if you need to step gingerly through something. But mostly, somebody just needs to read through the article, and then do some search queries for different years of Huff's career, to get a feel for what the sources (once sanitized into NPOV facts) actually *say* is most notable about the WP:BLP in question.

  And for the afc queue, WP:WPAFC or WP:AFC or WP:AFCH or similar, will take you to where you need to go. There's a tab called 'submissions' which lists various statistics. There are old articles (called G13 in wikiCop jargon) which are mostly abandoned, and there are brand new ones just submitted. Your best bet is to look for ones that are neither: the articles where you can immediately jump in and start productively helping, are the ones which were just declined by one of the AfC regulars. The decline-message will say what the problem is, and the author who is sad about the decline, will be delighted to have somebody *helping* them fix the problems. To find declines, there are some bot-generated lists, but the easier way is just to find an AfC regular, visit their talkpage, click on 'User contributions' to see what they've been up to recently, and look for Declin(e)(ing) messages with ctrl+f in your browser. It may help to click the '500' hyperlink, to see the last 500. Once you find an article to mess with, just open a new section here, paste the work, make the updates, and then use the echolocation trick to alert the author of the article, or ask the nearest handy-nearby person.

  Think I covered all the questions, if not, ask again. And yes, feel free to hammer away, either I'll answer you, or if I'm too lazy, some other talkstalk might, and if nobody answers you, once you're unblocked you can ask the questions at helpdesk/teahouse/refdesk/similar. Also, note that wikipedia has a search-box, and you can type "afc queue" into it, and get back... nothing useful... but then you can click 'help pages n project pages' to try the search again, and that will give you a better shot at finding what you seek. That said, I almost always use an *external* search engine, because the wikipedia one is so awful.  :-)   Hope this helps, let folks know if you need anything. — 74.192.84.101 (talk) 09:33, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  Almost forgot this one. WP:SOP. As you can see, quite a few of these are violated brazenly in the hotzones. That is spreading to the other areas, as well. Must be slowed, then stopped, then reversed. These are good principles; the trouble is, building an environment that selects for people who wish to, and know how to, maintain such a thing. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 10:21, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi "74", These look like a good place for the next step - I think they'll provide an excellent chance to gain some experiential learning on how WP referencing works mechanically, and also on what makes a quality reference. I have added these to the list above; as well as the Bob Huff article, which I will have another look over. Please send details of your prior work on the Trombone articles, if & when you can. - Ryk72 (talk) 03:20, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi "74", Also looking over BETTER WORDS, so that I can help VirtualAvi with some changes to WT:Articles_for_creation/Sapience. - Ryk72 (talk) 09:57, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hah!  :-)   I was just about to tell you that you could find out yourself the details of my prior work on the trombone triplets, by clicking on the link I helpfully provided, how could you miss where I said " *HERE* are some tasks..." in my message, if you weren't so... uhhmmm wait... wait just a minute... where it that, um, helpfully-provided link? I coulda sworn... nevermind. Yes, let's just go ahead and strike this whole paragraph.

...was just about to tell you that, ahem, if somebody forgets to post a useful link, rather than TOTALLY POINTING OUT that they were a bonehead... <grin> ... if you want to search for someone's prior contributions on a topic, you can click over to their user-talkpage (or userpage), and click 'user contributions' on the left, and click '500' to show a bunch of recent effort, an then use ctrl+f to search for for trombone or whatever you are wondering about. Were you to do that, you would find these things:

1. Talk:International_Trombone_Association, stub article, definitely-wikiNotable annual trombone-festival && hosting-association, I did a reasonably comprehensive WP:GOOG search for WP:RS, but did not read any of them, not fix the stub-contents. A good challenge, for creating-basically-from-scratch, with most of the chaff-sources already cut out of your way.
2. Talk:Eastern_Trombone_Workshop, same as above.
3. User_talk:Stanleywlchen#getting_SliderAsia_article_written_correctly, not-yet-proven-wikiNotable annual trombone-festival && hosting-association, but methinks could be done, if Chinese-language WP:RS can be located. No article exists, if you want to draft one, I've listed the sources (with analysis of their WP:RS status) on Stanley's page.
4. Jazz on the Square, just-barely-wikiNotable jazz festival, picked because they are similar in size to SliderAsia... I already did some de-peacocking exercises here, but could always use another set of eyeballs
5. User_talk:PeterBiddlecombe#trombone questions, with meta-suggestions and meta-discussion you may find useful, mostly about the four things above

Having not actually read the ITA/ITF && ETW links I gathered, i.e. not myself personally having visited said links, please note that these are all just *potentially* RS for the ITA (btw please verify whether the disambig page has them listed?), and each URL will thus need to be assessed for whether it is either RS#1) fact-checked by professional editorial board of a publication, or RS#2) peer-reviewed aka refereed academic publication counting PhD theses, or RS#3) the stated opinion of a Very Important Person in the field in question.

  This third RS#3 option, clearly being the hardest to verify/justify, but on topics like non-pop-music performing arts, or martial arts, or a few other more-action-less-conversation fields, can be essential to proving wikiNotability and wikiReliability. The usual example here, is if Noam Chomsky says that such-and-such linguistic theory has merit at blog.noamchomsky.com then this *counts* as WP:RS, although it is WP:PRIMARY and should only be used 'with care' ... but it does count. With the trombone stuff, there are a lot of blogs of might-be-famous-trombonists (aka artists) and of might-be-famous-conductors (aka the heads of various symphony organizations). These *might* be WP:RS, or might not. Yngvadottir and Drmies have some experience with tricksy sourcing, and may be willing to help out with the analysis.

  But, all that being said, stick with the low-hanging-fruit first: skim through the sources, cherrypick the ones that seem most easily and obviously satisfy RS#1 or RS#2 above, and defer the RS#3-type-sources-stuff until later (perhaps indefinitely... you ain't WP:REQUIRED to go through every source I ran across with a fine-toothed comb... just do what is fun for you, and skip the drudgery, somebody else will come along later, one editor's drudgery is another editor's dream). Hope this helps, danke por improvamente DahCommuhnity, talk to you later. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 17:57, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi "74", Thanks for the set of links; I'll look into these over the next few days and see what I can do. Order of priorities will probably be: 1) Sapience, 2) Trombones 3) Bob Huff; but if there's a chance to significantly progress any of these, I will. Thanks again for the advice & the opportunity to make a contribution. - Ryk72 (talk) 20:58, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

So what is your basic question? Something like, was justice served, when you got blocked? The answer is, probably not. It was rough justice. Frontier justice. Shoot from the hip, ask questions later, kind of justice. Wikipedia is still actually on the frontier. There's only 30k active editors, that contribute 5+edits/mo. Only about 10% of them are very active, with 100+edits/mo. Secret is a good editor, and a good admin. They once banned all members of homo sapiens sapiens modernii from mainspace, of course! That was probably a mistake.  :-)

  But on wikipedia, mistakes are not permanent. History of human civilization goes where it should; that history of civilization does not yet do so, and has not done so since 2009, is a correctable trouble. Undeletions require admin intervention, otherwise anybody with a username could fix the history of civilization troubles. Along the same lines, unblocking requires an admin, and in your particular case, unblocking *usually* requires the blocking-admin. Which is no longer possible, and other admins are a bit antsy about an unblock which crosses the Big Line In The Sand. No harm no foul... you can still read wikipedia, and make new sections right here on your talkpage, and "edit" articles thataway. Just ask somebody by using the @Ryk72: feature to come along and shuffle your edits into mainspace, once the fixes are ready. Furthermore... although the admin shot from the hip when they blocked you, unlike in a *real* situation of rough justice, you can be resusitated. Content which is deleted incorrectly can be retrieved, and editors which are blocked incorrectly can be unblocked. I've only recently started messing with talkpages... for quite a long time, I just edited mainspace, communicating via edit-summaries. One thing I've learned in the talkpage-namespace, is that the wheels of wikiJustice grind exceedingly slow, but the do grind, and they tend to grind exceedingly fine. So, I expect you'll be unblocked eventually, and free to roam about once again.

  Did you do anything wrong? Yes, a couple things. First, you responded to rudeness with rudeness. There is a caste-system around here. It's not fair. But it is, what it is. You were the low-caste person. Somebody was fucking rude to you. You responded, with rudeness in kind. Banhammer. It's unfortunate... I think it's the wrong way to run the 'pedia... but it's nothing personal. "Ye judged me before ye even knew me." Correct. Because statistically, the chances that you were a wikipedian at heart, rather than somebody here to disrupt things, was about 10 to 1, or maybe higher.

  As it turns out, you were a Good Egg, and thus, your ban was a false-poz. I'm working on adjusting a bunch of different wiki-crap, to keep the false-poz events from being wiki-stress-inducing. Sorry that I failed to finish the job, in time to save *your* tender feelings.  :-)   But you came out of your trouble relatively unscathed. A bit more wary, perhaps, but still Assuming Good Faith... and that, more than anything else, says you'll do fine here.

  So. Mistake number one, being a beginner. "Mistake" number zero, reading the policies first, signing your posts, knowing what you were talking about, arguing lucidly, and being bold. DO YE NOT KNOW THY PLACE YE BEGINNER?!?  :-)   As for actual mistakes, your posts were too long. I suffer from the exact same disease; around here, they even named an official policy after me, WP:WALLOFTEXT. You and I will get along just fine. But other folks, are not gonna be happy. I won't try to give you any advice on how to stay terse, because obviously, *I* must know nothing about it, otherwise I would practice what I (don't) preach. Finally, you make the mistake of bangvoting in two-and-a-half places. You posted your original bangvote of oppose-the-move-to-a-slashed-article, and then later, you posted (several inches further down the screen) another bangvote of oppose-the-move-to-pinnacle, and then a bit further down still at the maximum outdent level) posted a comment where you suggested support for possibly moving one of the article to a slashed form.

  You are a beginner. You did not know. But here's the deal. If you bangvote oppose, and then leave a long comment (or there gradually grows to be a long chain of rebuttal-reply stuff below your original bangvote), and then later temporally you *change your thinking* and want to say more, you should say it right in the place where you originally gave your rationale, right at the top. Now, this is tricky to do properly! You cannot just go and change what you originally wrote, because folks may have already left rebuttals, to your *original* rationale, right? Right. So, you have to do it with a bit of HTML, and since you already mentioned you know something of markup langs, I'll just demonstrate, sans further longwinded explanations.

Oppose move to Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands. This is an artificial construct which is not the common name in English, and does not meet several of the principles of WP:AT, WP:POVNAMING, WP:NCGN et al; some of these principles & guidelines are explicitly against the use of such constructs. —Ryk72 (talk) 05:55, 26 December 2013 (UTC) Also, Oppose move to Pinnacle Islands. There is no evidence that this is the common name in English and it appears a poor compromise. - Ryk72 (talk) 05:55, 26 December 2013 (UTC) Update: may now Support moving only Senkaku Islands dispute → Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands dispute. —Ryk72 (talk) 05:55, 26 December 2013 (UTC) please find enclosed my WP:TLDR rationale The impetus for this WP:RM appears two-fold: That 1) the current article title is biased or supports a non-NPOV; 2) the current article title does not reflect the English common name. W.r.t perceived bias of the current name: WP:POVNAMING suggests the following "Although multiple terms may be in common usage, a single name should be chosen as the article title, in line with the article titling policy (and relevant guidelines such as on geographical names). Article titles that combine alternative names are discouraged. ... Instead, alternative names should be given due prominence within the article itself, and redirects created as appropriate." The current title is in line with this; alternative names are given significant mention in the article, and redirects are in place. WP:NCGN on Multiple local names suggests "There are cases in which the local authority recognizes equally two or more names from different languages, but English discussion of the place is so limited that none of the above tests indicate which of them is widely used in English; so there is no single local name, and English usage is hard to determine. Experience shows that the straightforward solution of a double or triple name is often unsatisfactory; there are all too many complaints that one or the other name should be first. We also deprecate any discussion of which name the place ought to have. We recommend choosing a single name, by some objective criterion, even a somewhat arbitrary one. ... one solution is to follow English usage where it can be determined, and to adopt the name used by the linguistic majority where English usage is indecisive. ... There are occasional exceptions ... when the double name is the overwhelmingly most common name in English. This should not be done to settle a dispute between national or linguistic points of view; it should only be done when the double name is actually what English-speakers call the place." In summary, these principles & guidelines indicate that w.r.t the article title, questions of bias, or support of a national or linguistic POV are secondary to the requirements to reflect the English common name. The current article title is in line with these guidelines. The proposed double name is, at least in part, explicitly to settle a dispute between national points of view; and therefore contrary to these guidelines. W.r.t naming in general: WP:AT suggests "By the design of Wikipedia's software, an article can only have one title. When this title is a name, significant alternative names for the topic should be mentioned in the article, usually in the first sentence or paragraph. If there are at least three alternative names, or there is something notable about the names themselves, a separate name section is recommended." The current article title & content is in line with this; redirects are in place. W.r.t the question of the current English common name: In line with the principles & guidelines above, for the WP:RM to be upheld, the exact phrase "Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands" must be the actual English common name for the islands; it is not sufficient for there to be several alternative names, or for there to be differing national points of view; in these case we would choose one or the names and list the alternatives in the article. Much of the evidence provided does not appear support the line of thought that the English common name has changed to "Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands". A significant number of the articles provided simply use one or the other of "Senkaku" or "Diaoyu", with the other referenced at some point during the article; this is especially an issue for the provided evidence which is based on Google searches. Additionally, much of the evidence provided actually relates to the territorial dispute itself. As covered below, the name of the dispute itself would appear to be a separate thing. There is no evidence provided that the name of the dispute has changed the English common name of the islands themselves in some type of back formation. Questions of "Senkaku" being the anglicization of the local Japanese name or also being the Japanese name are moot. There is no more issue with this than with the title of other English Wikipedia articles where the English common name is an anglicization; e.g. "Berlin" or "Wiradjuri". It appears that there are several alternate names in use; with "Diaoyu" or "Diaoyutai" being used in the Chinas (PRC & ROC) and the Chinese diaspora, and "Senkaku Islands" being used elsewhere, including in several of the "reliable sources" listed in the guidelines; "Pinnacle Islands" appears seldom used. Based on this, there does not appear to be sufficient evidence to support the WP:RM. - Ryk72 (talk) 05:55, 26 December 2013 (UTC) — Ryk72 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. User Ryk72 (this is a SPA account?), let me just repeat: The correct way ...((snip))... --Lvhis (talk) 17:10, 26 December 2013 (UTC) User Lvhis, I respectfully suggest that please see WP:WikiSpeak#respect for why this is usually a bad phrase — and you may find other hue more there which is applicable to your experience there are a number of issues with the use of the extract from WP:COMMONNAME, quoted as above. I will not to repeat the full text of WP:COMMONNAME, but omit needless words the text preceding the quote indicates that the primary purpose of the policy is to establish a preference for the article title to be a single name, most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in reliable English-language sources). The use of the ellipsis within the quote is also troublesome; no point in pre-pointing this point out, per WP:POINT, or am I bluffing? :-) the full text of the quoted piece is "Neutrality is also considered; our policy on neutral titles, and what neutrality in titles is, follows in the next section. Article titles should be neither vulgar nor pedantic. When there are multiple names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others." An impartial reading would be that this redirects questions of "Neutrality in Article Titles" to WP:POVTITLE (& WP:POVNAME or WP:POVDESC); and that the final sentence relates to questions of vulgarity or pedanticism(?), which may be addressed by choosing an alernate title from the existing set of common names - not the creation of a synthetic hybrid name. In short, I do not concur that WP:COMMONNAME supports use of either a hybrid title ("Diaoyu/Senkaku Islands"), or of an alternative which is not the most commonly used ("Pinnacle Islands"); that is, it does not support the WP:RM. :::However, I do think you have highlighted at least some of the points of disconnect between the thoughts in the initial WP:RM and in my !vote; which I will summarize, in the hope that it might assist us in moving towards consensus. My understanding is that you assert the following: a. that "Senkaku Islands" is a locally used non-English name. b. that "Diaoyu Islands" (and variations thereof) is also a locally used non-English name. c. that by some measuring or accounting they are "equally used". d. that, therefore, the article title "Senkaku Islands" is biased, supporting a national POV, or does not accurately reflect the English common name. e. that the "correct way" to proceed is to use these in a combination or hybrid form or; f. that the "correct way" to proceed is to use none of them, potentially by having "common usages ... be cancelled by each other". g. that "Pinnacle Islands" is the "real and pure" English name, for some unstated meaning of "real" and '"pure". Please note that I am not attempting to create a straw man, or to verbal you; this is my understanding of your reasoning behind the WP:RM. If I am incorrect on any of these, please let me know; and let the community know which you feel are incorrect. Ryk, your intent here was in good faith, but I know from experience .... <grin> .... that people NEVER take this the right way. But hey, at least you only listed points seven bullet-points, when I tried it there were 98. True story, albeit a very sad one. :::However, I maintain that these assertions are not borne out by the evidence available, to wit: i. that "尖閣諸島 Senkaku-shotō" and "钓鱼岛 Diaoyu", and variations thereof, are the locally used non-English names. not 'Senkaku' nor 'Diaoyu' ii. that "Senkaku Islands" is an English name, regardless that it is derived from the Japanese Senkaku-shotō, and that it is used internationally. (For similar examples of English names derived from locally used non-English names, see: Moscow, Prague, Croatia, Ireland, Poland and many others) iii. that "Diaoyu Islands" is an English transliteration of the Chinese name, and that it is used almost exclusively by the Chinas (PRC & ROC), the Chinese diaspora, or in the construct "known as Senkaku Islands in Japan and Diaoyu Islands in China" or similar; (KASIJDIC). iv. that KASIJDIC and similar constructs such combo-phrase-usage does not provide evidence for the use of "Diaoyu Islands" as an English common name; any more than "known as pain in France and brot in Germany" provides evidence that these are English terms for bread. 'Diaoyu' clearly is not used as often as 'Senkaku' v. that "Pinnacle Islands" is rarely used, and therefore cannot be said to be the English common name, or the "real and pure" English name for any accepted meanings of "real" or "pure". vi. that the Wikipedia Principles, Policies & Guidelines WP:PG already provide mechanisms for dealing with situations like this; vii. that those mechanisms WP:PG do not support use of a combination or hybrid name as the article title or the use of something which is not the English common name (as evidenced by reliable sources); that is, they do not align with the assertion as at e.; and "e" can be elided too since it is just "we should use a combo-hybrid-name" viii. that those mechanisms WP:PG do not support or provide for the use of *none* of the common English names, nor for the idea that "common usages ... be cancelled by each other" as proposed above at f. ix. that, in this instance, those mechanisms WP:PG supports the use of "Senkaku Islands" as the article title, with inclusions in the lead text of the article detailing: "Diaoyu Islands" as an alternative, which is used as described at iii.; and the Chinese & Japanese names from i. as locally used non-English names; and inclusions in the later text describing the issues with the "Senkaku Islands" name from a Chinas (PRC & ROC) & Chinese diaspora perspective. I humbly submit that to refute the conclusion at ix. you would want to refute or disprove one or more of these points: ii., iii., or v. - by providing evidence from reliable external sources; vi., vii., viii. - by providing evidence from Wikipedia Principles, Policies &/or Guidelines; WP:PG or alternately that ix. does not logically follow from the previous points. I would be happy if you were to do so; it may move us closer to consensus. :::Alternately, we could move towards consensus by no longer having one or more of a. through g. asserted. Apologies if the above seem overly legalistic. I am simply looking to provide a clear, logical breakdown of where I see the current WP:RM not convincing me falling down; so that you might either: improve the reasoning, obtain more evidence, or adjust your position towards a more consensus view. - This strikethru is borderline... saying what you said was mostly fine... but I would avoid giving advice (look how well I heed *that* idea! <grin>) and just stating your position clearly, unless asked a direct what-do-you-suggest-we-do question, or unless making a specific howto-recommendation, rather than a generally-applicable set of non-situation-specific options Ryk72 (talk) 02:42, 28 December 2013 (UTC) To Ryk72 (a newly created single-purpose account), you're just trying to play down the significance of "Diaoyu Islands" to suit your argument; "Diaoyu Islands" is a widely used common name in English sources, and is also in line with WP:POVNAMING, WP:NCGN and WP:AT. Therefore, the current title is biased in terms of common name issue (as well as NPOV issue). STSC (talk) 09:28, 27 December 2013 (UTC) ::User STSC, would it also be fair to also say that you are just trying to play up the significance of "Diaoyu Islands" to suit your argument? stick to the high moral ground, even when... make that *especially* when... provoked I do not concur that there is sufficient evidence to suggest that "Diaoyu Islands" is a widely used common name in English sources outside those used in the narrow cases in my update above; therefore I cannot concur that "Diaoyu Islands" is in line with WP:AT - Ryk72 (talk) 02:42, 28 December 2013 (UTC) Comment There are also issues with the conflation of the 3 articles in a single WP:RM; these may be better split. There appears to be substantially more evidence supporting the English common name for the dispute itself including both "Senkaku" & "Diaoyu" in some form. That is, that the dispute is a separate thing, with an independent name. Indeed, much of the evidence for the whole of this WP:RM only relates to naming of the dispute itself. Therefore, may support move of the dispute article only (don't bold it down here... *do* copy and bold it up top) may support moving only  : Senkaku Islands dispute → Senkaku/Diaoyu Islands dispute; with the article itself updated to include details of the various alternative namings for this dispute. I've updated my position, above, to reflect this change.- Ryk72 (talk) 05:55, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

I haven't done everything that could be done here, but hopefully my point is clear. Give your logical policy-backed argument in a few short words. If you need a paragraph toexplain, fine. If you need eight paragraphs to explain, use the collapse-tags, or even better, sleep on it, so that you don't post until you can boil it down. If you are bangvoting, and you have multiple opposes, or some sort of complex oppose-x && oppose-y && may support variation-x-doubleprime, group them all at the top. If you need to *change* your phrasing later on, after folks have already commented, use the (s)(/s) and the (ins)(/ins) tags to make it clear what happened, for others in the conversation, and also for lurkers. Therefore, get in the habit of never using (u)(/u) for emphasis. Use this or *this* or VERY rarely allcaps to emphasize things. Only use bold when you really need your point to stick out, for someone who is skimming the entire thread. The exception is inside collapse-tags, where the TLDR barrier is helped by the liberal use of boldface... somebody that uncollapses your long argument, may get the gist of it from reading the bolded portions, if you do this right. And hey, if you really did it right, maybe you can just delete the collapsed section entirely, and just keep the formerly-bolded-sentences-therefrom, right? Right.

  Anyhoo, as has yet again been dramatically demonstrated, I'm not the one to be giving *anybody* advice on how to stay terse. Did you main question get answered? You got blocked by mistake, based on admins acting from experience (aka statistical evidence) and tell-tale clues (which turned out wrong). You'll get unblocked by staying calm, lucid, and ... unfortunately ... extremely patient, while the wheels of wikiJustice grind slowly along. In the meantime, feel free to ask questions about the finer points that may be unclear, or even about the bloody obvious points which are staring everybody in the face. Good questions are hard to come by, in the wikiverse as well as the real-o-verse. Also, feel free to keep on editing, just use portions of your talkpage as a scratchpad, and ask the nearest editor to help you out by putting your stuff into mainspace when it it ready. Hope this helps, sorry about the uber-wall, and thanks for improving wikipedia. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 20:53, 9 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi "74",

Absolutely what I was looking for! This answers a lot of questions; provides some solid, specific, constructive criticism; and palliates the soul. I can now understand, acknowledge, accept & (most importantly) improve. I am still absorbing some of the finer points, so will reply back later with something more detailed; including potentially some questions (if that's ok).

I really do appreciate you having taken the time to look into the specifics & write up your thoughts in this much detail.

Thank you! - Ryk72 (talk) 22:37, 9 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

You're surely welcome, but as you may have guessed, an ulterior motive guides me. I'm writing up the one-page Wikipedia Jungle Survival Manual (aka Jungle Survival on Wikipedia) which is intended to give beginners practical tips about how to thrive here in the wikiverse. One of the tips is going to be, don't ever vote more than once, and if you do, see Ryk's talkpage first.  :-)

  Yes, questions are fine. WP:BOLD applies to questions, not just to mainspace edits.  ;-)   Hope this helps, hope you are doing well, talk to you later. — 74.192.84.101 (talk) 09:39, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

"Article titles should be neither vulgar nor pedantic." That sentence of authoritah is related to biology-articles and chemistry articles. The main title is Marijuana rather than tri-glycol-heptabenzene-mono which is too narrow and too pedantic, rather than plantus greenus leafus hashish marijuanii which is still too pedantic, and rather than one of the large variety of slang-names which are probably more common in spoken use but undoubtedly less common in journalism && academia (when the journalists and the researchers are not being pedantic and/or vulgar that is!).

  Place-names *can* be vulgar, e.g. the Big Apple for NYC, and place-names can be pedantic e.g. James VI and I#Titles_and_styles gives you an idea of the various names that the island-on-which-London-is-located as been called over the years. The non-vulgar non-pedantic typical-published-in-English-WP:RS-usage names for these places are Manhattan/New York City and Great Britain/United Kingdom. There *is* a link for Manhattan Island, but it is just a redirect to the borough of Mahattan... because the borough utterly covers the entire landmass, presumably... though I would argue that Manhattan Island the bit of rock, deserves a separate article. Anyhoo, that's the meaning of vulgar-n-pedantic, or at least, the gist thereof.

  None of the names competing for primacy in the Disputed Islands at 25N 123E article-triplet are of this nature, although Pinnacle Islands is borderline-pedantic aka has some tinge of being like the 'real' name of Marijuana. But methinks people like Blueboar are suggesting Pinnacle in perfectly good faith... they know it is an uncommon-bordering-on-archaic name, but see it as a way to reduce the disruptive fighting (compare the reasonably neutral West Bank as distinct from Palestine and Israel). Myself, *I* like Kendall's suggestion. We have no need to use a particular name in the title, when a generic one will do, with redirects from all the senkaku/diaoyu/diaoyutai/tiaoyutai/tiaoyu/pinnacle/combonames/etc which that have been utilized in WP:RS over the years. As for the prose, we can scrupulously refer to the islands, without ever needing to use a name. All the wiki-warriors would therefore be able to concentrate on a single paragraph in a single subsection, something like Conflict over the Disputed Islands at 25N 123E#naming which would neutrally lay out the historical names, the historical control, and the reasoning of the wikiNotable proponents behind various naming-conventions. But even in the child-article specifically *about* the conflict, I would still use the islands whenever possible, outside the sub-subsection about naming. And in fact, I may just propose this in an RfC at some point, after thinking it over a bit further. But in the meanwhile, let sleeping islands lie, or something like that. HTH. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 19:17, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Desperately trying to not re-argue the SI point, but at the same time respond. Let me know if I have failed on the "re-argue" and I will amend or delete this update.

Vehemently agreeing with you that "vulgar or pedantic" didn't really apply to the SI case; but then considering that, as a result, the next sentence in the quote also did not apply to that case.

That is, that the quote from WP:PG, "Neutrality is also considered; our policy on neutral titles, and what neutrality in titles is, follows in the next section. ... When there are multiple names for a subject, all of them fairly common, and the most common has problems, it is perfectly reasonable to choose one of the others." did not support the WP:RM, once the ellipsis was expanded & the following section, directly relating to "neutrality", examined.

Does that make sense? I emphasised that sentence because it was missing & because of its effect on the words around it; not because I felt it was directly relevant.

I also concur with many (but not all) of your later comments; I agree that there is a lot which could be done in the main text of those articles to "neutrally lay out" the details. I will not, however, put specifics here, as I do not want to be seen as attempting to influence the discussion.

The only example that came immediately to mind where "vulgar & pedantic" applies is an Australian football player whose nickname, & therefore WP:COMMONNAME, unfortunately includes a racial epithet; the article title used is the players actual name, not their common name, which has significant problems.

Also, I would be very keen to contribute to the "Jungle Survival Manual" in any way that I can; hopefully not just as an exemplar of "what not to do". :) I think making things easier for new editors is a good thing[tm], and will serve to improve Wikipedia (both as a collegial community of editors & as an encyclopaedia). I can do proofreading, provide a fresh set of opinions/experiences, or even just temper verbosity. :P

Note: if there is an issue with this update, please let me know; I will be happy to modify or remove as required.

- Ryk72 (talk) 20:23, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Your experience is too many standard deviations outside every orthogonal axis of the normspace, sorry.  :-)   You actually read some policies before diving in. You got indef'd after four talkpage posts. You have patience and a bunch of other good qualities. So yeah, you prolly are not only going to be kept out of The Survival Manual, we're prolly going to have to set the selection-bar a wee little bit lower. Because the point of the survival manual is strictly selfish and driven by an ulterior motive: we want it to attract Good Eggs (if possible outnumbering any Bad Eggs that may be thereby attracted). There are already plenty of tutorials, and so on. But most of them are idealistic and/or patronizing, like MODULA-3. I'm envisioning something pragmatic and terse. Wikipedia right now, has a wikiCulture, which is itself an environment. It acts as a sorting-device, selecting out the "desired" behavioral traits.

  Trouble is, not all of the selected traits are ACTUALLY desirable!  :-)   There are about 120k people here on enWiki who are currently editors in the technical sense, aka 1+edit in the past month. There are about 30k people here on enWiki who are actives, aka 5+edits/mo. There are 3k people who are veryActives, 99+edits/mo. My goal, in the long run, it to make that middle-number jump from 30k to 300k, and from 300k to 3m. This is about 1% of the enWiki readership, so we can afford to be very choosy. Furthermore, we already have a brand new set of 1000 actives who show up *every* month, which has been going on for month after month... but also, *every* single month, we lose 1050 editors, so our net trend of 5+edits/mo folks is downhill, and has been for years now. Just this past year, we started seeting a 4% decline (net!) in the veryActives, too. Extremely worrisome, to my mind.

  But the fix is simply: instead of driving away 1050 editors, out of every 1000 that show up each month, we just tweak the wikiCulture to drive away only 917 of them, which nets us +1k editors per year (indefinitely). That means we would have 50k editors by 2035, rather than 17k that trendlines currently predict. That's a three-to-one population-slash-personnel-slash-workforce advantage! Even better, only drive away (aka 'de-select') around 834 of those 1000 new editors we get for 'free' every single month... and we'd have 71k that year of 2035. However, I'm reasonably certain that we can retain a large percentage of the 1000 people who show up: if we retain half of each batch, by year 2035 we'd have 150k editors, and if we retain two-thirds, make that 200k. Fortunately, methinks there is no reason to wait that long.

  Namely, because once word gets out that wikipedia is *really* the top-ten website anyone can edit, that it is fun again rather than snarky, I'm pretty confident exponentially more people will show up each month (or show *back* up... there are 20 million registered usernames on file). We're retained point-one percent as actives, so far. Out of the entire readership of hundreds of millions of unique visitors every month, about 5% have tried their hand at editing, and about 0.006% of those hundreds of millions have been retained. I suggest we aim for retaining 0.6% of them; no worries, we can still feel cool enough, we can still reject 99.4% of the readership as unworthy!  :-) But 99.994 percent rejection, leaves us noticeably short-handed, busy-busy, and irritable.

  Part of the reason you got blocked, is that everybody is so busy-busy. But more importantly, that's why beginners get WP:NINJA-reverted, rather than helped. The editor-count is steadily declining, but the readership is growing, every year. One of the key numbers for any wikiproject is editors/article, and edits/article. However, methinks even more important is readers/editor, and then editors/admin, and then admins/arbs. If there are too few editors, the articles suffer. If there are too few admins, the blocks tend to be hasty. If there are too few arbs, cases tend to be either turned down (leaving the problem to fester longer), or hastily disposed of (see admins && hasty blocks). If we want to have time to deal with visigoths of all sorts... spammers, vandals, trolls, et cetera... plus more importantly the activists and spin-doctors and WP:PUSH sort of folks... if we want to have time to properly settle content disputes and properly mediate personality clashes and so on... we have got to have more editors.

  We already have plenty of bohts. We already have plenty of wiki-tools (albeit aimed squarely at deletion rather than additive-contributions... another of my Big Goals nowadays is balancing that slant out). We even have reasonably *decent* policies, considered one by one. But when considered as a mass, and when considered in terms of the wikiCulture they generate (and reward... in a cyclical sequence of selective co-evolution), methinks we are in big trouble. There *is* a lot of conflict-of-interest editing, going on. There *is* a lot of sneaky promotion going on. These things will get worse: the more the readership grows, the more valuable wikipedia becomes as a means of advertising, as a means of attaining mindshare, as as means of shaping opinion, and as a means of controlling information. This has always been the case, but now more than ever. There are fewer folks to enact wikiJustice, patrol for changes, and so on. But there are *very* few folks to help the beginners, to mediate the disputes, to improve the wiki-tools, and so on.

  This isn't because we don't have plenty of people amongst the 500M who would be willing and able. It's because we drive people away. Most aren't driven away by getting blocked on their first article, although some are, ahem. Most are driven away slowly, by a generally abrasive wikiCulture which is supposed to be WP:NICE but in practice is both unjust and unfair. There are problems with the conflict-of-interest-thing, as well: if debates are won by the last editor standing (not by the better policy-backed argument), or by counting noses (not by the better policy-backed argument), then only people with a vested interest will bother with controversial articles... and once this approach becomes the de facto standard, *every* article will naturally (by 'natural' co-evolutionary selection) become a battleground.

  Anyhoo, before I take you up on your offer to have a nice little collaboration on the one-page humorous Wikipedia "Jungle" Survival Manual, figured I better let you know that I'm a bit of a revolutionary fanatic.  ;-)   Of course, *you* need not become a wikiRevolutionary, out to solve the problems of the wikiverse. You can help proofread The Manual™ or do any other stuff which strikes your fancy, without getting WP:INVOLVED. But my aim is to attract a vast amount of new folks, which are anti-authoritarian (pillar five), *actually* nice (pillar 4), in favor of free-as-in-freedom (pillar 3), and devoted to neutrality-as-mirroring-what-the-reliable-sources-say-with-no-cheating-and-no-WP:PUSH-whatsoever (pillar two). Plus, they have to be interested in JimboVision™ of building a collaborative encyclopedia, the additive sum of human knowledge, distilled into wiki-markup.

And on *that* note, I take my leave of you for today.  :-)   Hope this help, thanks for improving wikipedia, talk to you later. p.s. Hmmmm... I wonder what Ryk means by that curious phrase, to "temper verbosity" ... well, let us just shuffle over to wiktionary, and put two and two toge... HEY! Personal attack! Help, help, I'm being oppressed!  ;-) 74.192.84.101 (talk) 13:51, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi "74",

Where to start? Firstly, thanks for seeing the funny side in the comment above. As I see it a) some good natured & well intentioned ribbing is not not WP:NICE; b) you seem to have a decent sense of humour; c) we are probably both prone to a verbosity in need of the occasional tempering; ( e) mine also extending to an irrational love of lists ). Please don't for a second think that anything was either TL or worthy of a DR.

But, given the length, and the number of topics covered, I am slightly stuck on how to best reply and also maintain some semblance of coherency. I thought about going back and adding in a series of small comments throughout the text above; and can still do so, but if it's ok, I might try some collapses here instead. Ryk72 (talk) 13:26, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

welcome to the jungle ... anchor subtitle added by 74, not by Ryk, who is too polite :-)[edit]

on names[edit]

Note: if there is an issue with this update, please let me know; I will be happy to modify or remove as required.

- Ryk72 (talk) 13:26, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi , I just noticed the edit summary for your previous update above, and finally worked out that you were responding to the implied question in my previous: "vulgarity or pedanticism(?)". I'm a bit slow today. The question mark was only around the word that I used, "pedanticism"; which definitely isn't English. I realise that this should've been "pedantry", but wanted a strong tie to the actual text used in the relevant WP:PG, which is "vulgar or pedantic"; so built my own English, in the style of The Bard. Hope this makes it clearer? As mudlike? - Ryk72 (talk) 12:49, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Heh heh... okay, *that* is funny.  :-)   I'm so used to using bad grammar when spachen ze poliseez, it literally never came anywhere near to the occur of me, to think you were putting the qmark as a way of pointing out that pedanticism is a totally logical yet totally made up word. As you probably realize by now, I'm a bit annoyed at the need to stay grammatical in mainspace, so I tend to blow the doors off, in talkspace. Anyhoo, yes, now I gotcha. Still, glad I *thought* it was a question, writing the answer was useful for organizing my own thoughts(?).  ;-)   74.192.84.101 (talk) 13:51, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ryk72: I hadn't seen the unblock request and Arbcom appeal draft above until today, sorry. Did you decide not to e-mail Arbcom? It still appears that having you do that would be the simplest way, since the blocking administrator, Secret, is no longer an admin. If you have decided not to do that, I think a discussion on the Admins' Noticeboard might be preferable to a formal Arbcom appeal, but the e-mail route might save us all from having to go through either of those. Yngvadottir (talk) 22:16, 7 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Yngvadottir, I hope this finds you well.

It wasn't so much a decision not to email ArbCom; more than I re-read the following section of WP:AEBLOCK;

"To request that such a block be lifted, you may:

• address your appeal by email to the blocking administrator (using the "Email this user" link on their talk page), or
• make an unblock request using ((unblock)) that asks the reviewing administrator to initiate a community discussion about your appeal. You should prepare the appeal in the form provided by the template ((Arbitration enforcement appeal)) on your talk page, below the unblock request, so that the reviewing administrator may simply copy it to the appropriate community forum. You are not entitled to a community review of your block. The reviewing administrator may decline to initiate a community discussion if you do not prepare a convincing appeal before making your unblock request.

If neither of these appeals is successful, you may appeal by email to the Arbitration Committee (at [email protected])."

and thought it seemed to indicate that the email to ArbCom should be after (at least one of) these two options had been explored.

So, more a case of trying to complete the prerequisite actions than anything else.

I am, however, inclined to go with the suggestions of those more knowledgeable & experienced that I; so will send something through to ArbCom later today.

Thanks again for your time, and for your assistance. It is always appreciated. - Ryk72 (talk) 22:51, 7 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I see. I think at this point I'll add your talk page to my voluminous watch list; let us know how it turns out. (By the way on those two scale articles, see WP:Merging for instructions on proposing a merger.) Yngvadottir (talk) 23:03, 7 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Yngvadottir, thanks for the advice on WP:Merging; looks a long process, but therefore clear and cautious, which are both good things. I noticed that on "74"'s Talk page, you mentioned that you were on IRC, so went looking, but could not find you. I am still there, with the obvious nick. Please also let me know if you advise that I close out the "unblock" request above & instead focus on an email to ArbCom - I'm basically just trying to follow the rules & at the same time not bother too many people; so am happy to take the less complex, less involved path. Thanks again. - Ryk72 (talk) 00:23, 8 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I should probably procedurally decline that open unblock request, but it seems like a mean thing to do. If you are amenable to sending the e-mail, I'd say do that and then if they unblock you, one of them can accept it. And I just pm'd you on IRC; I use the nick Rihan there :-) Yngvadottir (talk) 00:34, 8 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, what's happened? Did you e-mail them? I spent much of the last calendar week in a fog of sneeze-and-coughiness, with housemates standing over me ordering me to bed, so I avoided doing anything involving higher-order thought or admin tools, but I'm wondering whether there's been any change. Yngvadottir (talk) 13:19, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Yngvadottir,

No change as yet; but fortunately, the ball is still firmly in my court. I, likewise, spent most of the last few days sick in bed; so have not yet sent the email to ArbCom; the positive side of this is that I feel I can now suggest that I have tried the alternative avenues per WP:AEBLOCK.

The world outside the doorstep is taking precedence over the world beyond the keyboard today, as I catch up on a few things; but I am hopeful of popping an email through later in the day; will update here when so.

Hope you are feeling much improved & back to your usual self. - Ryk72 (talk) 22:40, 14 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I completely understand. Hope you're better now :-) Yngvadottir (talk) 22:46, 14 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Yngvadottir, just letting you know that the email to ArbCom is sent; but pending approval of the list moderator before it gets forwarded to the ArbCom members. A copy of the text is in the "December 2013" section above. And yes, much improved healthwise; hope you are likewise. - Ryk72 (talk) 10:37, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Point of order, yer honour... emailing arbcom *is* fine methinks, because your unblock-request (please will the admin file me an appeal) has been ignored so far. However, it would be wrong to say your unblock-via-appeal-at-AE has actually failed because the appeal (at AE or more properly AN methinks) has yet to happen. By my reading of DahRulz, though, contacting arbcom is always possible, specifically because ArbCom *can* give permission for some uninvolved admin (like HJ_Mitchell... who was specifically worried about possible Arb-related repercussions) to go ahead and CrossTheArbEnforcementLineInTheSand. Without that permission, it is not 'safe' for any admin but Secret to unblock you (sans appeal at AE).

  But the arbs may insist on dragging things out, if they do not wish to give non-endorsing-merely-procedural permission for an uninvolved admin to (at the admin's own discretion!) unblock you... whilst carrying their arbcom-written-procedural-permission-in-hand, thereby avoiding the risk of summarily-desysop'd-actions. Point being, if the arbs punt, then we'll get you an appeal at AN or AE or something like that; your request for appeal-at-AE-or-AN has failed to be acted upon, but the appeal-at-AE-or-AN itself has not yet therefore happened, and thus has not 'failed' in the usual meaning of that term. See also WP:DEADLINE and one of my favorites, WP:REQUIRED. HTH. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 17:08, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi "74",

You had me worried there for a second; worried that I'd suggested that an AE appeal had failed. As you quite rightly point out, this is not the case; an appeal hasn't yet happened.

I think I would be comfortable with either ArbCom directly overturning the block or sending things to an appeal at AE or AN. Based on the feedback here & elsewhere, I think that there is every chance of an appeal being successful - for reasons of WP:ROPE & WP:UB_CHEAP if nothing else.

But I'm also prepared for things to take some time. I keep in the back of my head that everyone here is a volunteer, and is doing this in their spare time - so I appreciate everything that is being / or might be done.

We'll wait and see what comes back from the email. Will keep you both posted. - Ryk72 (talk) 20:47, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, So much to respond to; especially a few massive updates from "74" for which, given the time taken to write them, it would be churlish to not provide a response. And then to do some actual Wikiwork on building a better encyclopaedia. Will come back to here with a "sitrep" shortly. - Ryk72 (talk) 08:17, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Yngvadottir & "74",

Just a quick note to let you know that I haven't heard anything as yet from the email to ArbCom. Given that the previous auto-response suggested that I would receive a notice if the email was not approved by the moderator, I'm considering that this is a case where "no news is _no news_" rather than anything else; either good or bad.

I am hopeful of hearing something back in the next day or so, but will send a follow up email if I have not heard anything soon - likely asking for a positive confirmation of receipt if nothing more.

Hope you are both well. Thank you for making Wikipedia, and my experience of it, better. - Ryk72 (talk) 13:37, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Ryk72, I was thinking it had been a long time, so I chose a member of Arbcom to bother with an e-mail. I've now received a response saying your e-mail was not apparently received, and you should send it again. I'm glad I asked .... Yngvadottir (talk) 22:54, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Yngvadottir,

I too am glad that you asked. I have just now resent the email.

Thanks again.

R - Ryk72 (talk) 23:06, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Collapsed: - Ryk72 (talk) 09:33, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hej Andersneld,

I'm not sure if this is exactly what you are looking for, or indeed if it helps in any way; and I do not claim to be any sort of expert on things Wikipedian; but I had a look over the article proposed at WT:Articles_for_creation/Adolf_Fredrik's_music_school, and here are some thoughts:

• Article Title: Not wanting to open a can of worms; but should the "music school" part be "Music School" (or even "Musikklasser")?

You are right, I will change. On the school's English language web page they use "music school" and "Music School" without any apparent system. They don't write "musikklasser though". After changing: The article's name doesn't change ... how do I accomplish that?

It is a bit strange at first, but try to sign each mini-posting with the four tildes, that way, I can see who is Ryk, and who is Andersneld. This is 74, of course! And the answer is, you should not try to change the article-name midstream, just put a big bold note at the top of your AfC page which says please make article title == xxxxxxxxxxxxxx and the problem will be corrected before the page is created in mainspace. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 09:58, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Lead section: Move the reference links to end of sentence "The school has three youth choirs of high international standard." - it currently breaks up the sentence & moving would look neater & flow better.

Yes, done

• History section: "Stockholm's music classes" seems like it might be a transliteration of a Swedish proper noun for a particular organisation or group; if so, suggest that it needs to be qualified with a generic noun - "Tom, a cat, until 1960..." or similar - to distinguish it from the concept, "all music classes occurring in Stockholm". - please let me know if this doesn't make sense.

I made a change, what do you think of the new version?

• History section: "Mariaskolan, Eriksdalsskolan and "Small Adolf Fredrik" at Dalagatan 18, at Hälsingegatan 2, in Vasa Real, and finally the Swedish National Defence College's old premises at Valhallavägen" reads somewhat strangely; could this be "Mariskolan, in Dalagatan 18; Eriksdalsskolan, in Hälsingegatan 2; "Small Adolf Fredrik" in Vasa Real; and finally the Swedish National Defence College's old premises at Valhallavägen"? Alternately, if this part is mostly about "Stockholm's music classes", and not AF music school, then suggest removing it.

I changed the text, better now?

• History section: Split or move "Facilities" sub-section out of "History" section. - basically "is this the history of the facilities, or a description of the facilities including some history?"

Good suggestion, done

I also went looking in the suggested places for additional references in books, academic journals, etc - there are not many for "AF music school"; but found the following for "AF Musikklasser", which you might want to use:

1. "The Cambridge Companion to Choral Music" - http://books.google.com/books?id=b79Dc9sHDtMC&pg=PA323&dq=%22Adolf+Fredriks+Musikklasser%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PVnQUsSCC8rnkAXGsIGYDg&ved=0CDUQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=%22Adolf%20Fredriks%20Musikklasser%22&f=false
2. "Nordic Sounds" - http://books.google.com/books?id=EHlPAQAAIAAJ&q=%22Adolf+Fredriks+Musikklasser%22&dq=%22Adolf+Fredriks+Musikklasser%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PVnQUsSCC8rnkAXGsIGYDg&ved=0CFAQ6AEwBg

I will look into this and the iTunes suggestion

I don't think there's much detail that isn't already mentioned in the article; but additional references certainly speaks to notability.

From the perspective of demonstrating notability, there's also:

• A brief reference in an academic journal on speech pathology or similar; around a study of 29 children from AF music school - not sure how much detail we can get without the actual journal / study - http://books.google.com/books?id=TdYbAQAAIAAJ&q=%22Adolf+Fredriks+Musikklasser%22&dq=%22Adolf+Fredriks+Musikklasser%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=PVnQUsSCC8rnkAXGsIGYDg&ved=0CFQQ6AEwBw

• An iTunes section for the AF Childrens' Choir, which might be worth mentioning - even if just to say that their music is available there - suggest that you check with someone with more Wikipedia knowledge than me to make sure this is ok. - https://itunes.apple.com/us/artist/childrens-choir-from-adolf/id220024314

• Some nice videos of performances on Youtube, which might be nice to link to, for people who want to have a listen to what the choirs sound like - again, suggest you check with someone to make sure this is ok.

Feel free to use or refuse any & all of these.

Best of luck! I am looking forward to saying "GRATTIS!" when the article is accepted. :)

Note: if there is an issue with this update, please let me know; I will be happy to modify or remove as required.

- Ryk72 (talk) 21:40, 10 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Terrific, many thanks for all the suggestions! I have included comments in the text above. Andersneld (talk) 07:04, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I found the book links above to be a little thin, but I found a Swedish book that I included under the Wider influence section Andersneld (talk) 07:42, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

WP:ELNO and WP:ELMAYBE are helpful here. Linking to itunes/amazon/ebay/similar is a no-go, per WP:NOTPROMOTION. We link to amazon.com from the Amazon.com article, of course, as their homepage, but we don't litter the rest of wikipedia with links to explicit commercial content. "Coupons" in the middle of the encyclopedias was a good tactic in the 1930s when encyclopedia sets were sold door-to-door, one volume at a time, but this is the internet age, right? We already have enough spam on wikipedia, with talkpage-template-spams, and mainspace-snark-tag-spams, and those annoying WMF donation-banners.  :-)   Anyways, no itunes.

  Also no youtube, for a different reason. Youtube links are often a copyright violation, see WP:COPYVIO for all the gory details. And in particular, the school sells their copyrighted performances on itunes, and wikipedia does not want to get into trouble over COPYVIO infringements in violation of WIPO. What would be nice, not immediately but eventually, is to get some recordings of the school choirs that are under CC-BY-SA-v3 or GFDL or similar wikipedia-compatible-licensing. That would require permission from the school, the singers, and the person (possibly Andersneld and possibly not) doing the recording-session-work. Uploading photos is similarly difficult; ideally, it is best to personally take the photo yourself, with your own digital camera, so that there are little-to-no-copyright-hassles.

  Ironic that the school's name is in contention.  :-)   As I learned on the Hotly Disputed Islands Of The Pacific Over Which Nobody Has Recently Died But The Day Is Young page where Ryk first enjoyed dipping their toe into the wikiverse, the usual approach is to use the English name which the WP:RS predominantly use. When the group travels to other countries, and the local English-language paper at their destination prints an article about the concert, what is the school called? Similarly, what is the school called in the google books hits? There can always be *redirects* which use variations, but the 'main' name of the Adolph article should be the one found in the RSes. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 09:58, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  Oh yeah, and forgot to mention. When creating an AfC article, or any new article for that matter, WP:42 applies, and it speaks of 'significant' coverage. Usually this is translated as "depth" of coverage, aka non-trivial non-incidental mention. Pages and pages? Great. Helps prove WP:N, just find two more or so, to cover the 'multiple' part of the basic rule. One sentence out of fifty? Not enough for WP:N prolly, but might by WP:NOTEWORTHY, as long as the source isn't merely a directory (e.g. the yellow pages are not counted as WP:RS). Hope this helps, thanks for improving wikipedia, folks. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 10:03, 11 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi 74.192.84.101,

I just wanted to say thanks again for the detailed response above. All very useful stuff which I am in the process of assimilating, but which will prove useful on future articles. I thought that the YouTube & iTunes links would be "borderline at best"; hence the caution to check with someone more experienced; and yes, I do see that if they were to be allowed that it would open a veritable can of worms.

And yes, I do also see the irony in my questions around the name of the article; especially given my brief, but interesting time here. :)

Good to see that, as Andersneld suggests, the article has now made its way into the main Wikipedia. A tribute to his efforts, and to the capable assistance of Yngvadottir & yourself. - Ryk72 (talk) 11:44, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

To my immense relief the article was finally approved yesterday :-) Thanks for all the help !!!

It is interesting that the school's own web page has youtube links. They might be the copyright holders though.

Regarding the school's name I have just e-mailed the school's principal. I informed him that all four words now begin with uppercase letters on Wikipedia, and suggested that the school should adopt this as a new standard in English translations. I didn't say this quite as bluntly of course. The problem is that this is not how it would be done in Swedish (Adolf Fredriks musikklasser) so for many Swedes it takes some getting used to. Andersneld (talk) 07:11, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hej Andersneld, GRATTIS!!

I am really very happy for you. It's nice to see your efforts produce a good result. And I, personally, think that it is good to have Adolf Fredrik's Music School included in Wikipedia; that it makes for a better encyclopedia.

W.r.t capitalisation of the school's name; all capitals is the convention used where I am from, and I think it's fairly usual in English speaking countries worldwide.

I agree that the references that I found were thin, but would still be inclined to see if you can work the "The Cambridge Companion to Choral Music" reference in somewhere. Cambridge University Press is a well respected publisher, linked to the university itself, and unlikely to be questioned as a reliable source.

But still, good to see the article accepted; a tribute to your hard work. I hope I was able to help in some small way. Feel free to let me know if I can help with anything else that you are working on.

And finally, a big thank you for dropping by here to let me know about the success. Really appreciate it.

Best regards, - Ryk72 (talk) 09:56, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Updated - Ryk72 (talk) 10:32, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hej again Ryk72, I did manage to weave a reference to the "The Cambridge Companion to Choral Music" into the article :-} Andersneld (talk) 13:07, 13 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding the youtube links from the school's website, it depends on what they are linking to. For instance, Yngvadottir had to chase somebody around from Stockholm the other week (back before Yngvadottir got totalllllly llllaaaazzzyyy and spent all that time lounging around in bed... slothful I say... disgraceful :-)

  This not-very-WP:NICE-person came here to put speculative unsourced defamatory language into a WP:BLP article, libelous unsourced defamatory material into a corporate article, and a link to a youtube video which was a full-length-rip of a copyrighted 1957 hollywood movie uploaded by some shady character deep in cyrillic territory.

  PLUS THEY EVEN SAID THAT ACACIA-HONEY IS MADE FROM THE ACACIA-PLANT, when as every botanist knows acacia honey is made from the *faux* 'acacia' plant!  :-)   Shockingly enough, somebody actually *did* know that fact, and when the visigoth inserted their unsourced and incorrect scientific not even wrong sentence into the article about the plant, it was fixed a few minutes later with the correct edit-summary. Impressive!

  Getting back to the point... merely linking to youtube, is not a copyright violation, aka WP:COPYVIO. The problem is, there are plenty of things on youtube which *are* infringing on copyright. You have to have a situation like this: person A creates a copyrighted movie, person B is the syndicate-holding-company which owns the copyright, person C buys the dvd and uploads the entire movie (to which they don't have the copyright... that would belong to person B remember) into their youtube account, person D inserts a link to that illegal-in-the-USA-content into a wikipedia article, and person E — an enemy of wikipedia — sues the pants off the WMF (and wins), or calls the upstream backbone provider which gives fiber-optic-access to the WMF datacenter (and forces them to pull the plug). That is the problem here.

  Now, what happens if there is a link to the same youtube video, from the website of the junior high choral-singing magnet-school in Sweden? Nothing. Why? Because there is not anybody to play the role of person E who will sue the school, or get their ISP to blacklist them, or other nefarious tricks. On the other hand, what is the school is linking to one of the 99% of youtube videos which are *legitimately* uploaded to youtube? Well, nothing. There's no law against linking to youtube.

  Wikipedia is careful about linking to youtube, because we have a *lot* of people that want to insert the specific links which are specifically in the 1% of youtube which is COPYVIO terrirtory, and more importantly, because there are plenty of groups willing to play the role of "person E" and sue the pants off wikipedia. Nobody is out to get the nice school in Sweden; but plenty of people would like to control wikipedia, or simply, get their hot little hands on some of the tens of millions of dollars that wikipedia has in donation-moolah. So we have to be extra careful about youtube. It's a dangerous game to play. The stakes are very high: if we "win" then we get to have a link to some youtube video... prolly not that big a "win". If we lose, the entire server-farm is taken offline, and possibly, millions of bucks in donations evaporate into thin air. NOT GOOD!

  As for iTunes, we pretty much never link there. Nor to amazon, nor to any other online store, for the most part, unless per WP:IAR... I may have to link there for auto-parts-cites, soon, as a matter of fact. (To an auto-parts-remanufacturer website... not to iTunes! :-)   Instead of hawking the wares of the school, by linking to their iTunes store, wikipedia would prefer to get some recordings of their content that are uploaded and copyright-licensed in such a way that they become free-as-in-freedom, for everyone in the world to enjoy. The owners of the school may not be interested in doing this, depending on how much money the school is trying to make from selling their wares on iTunes. See for instance here, The_Doon_School#School_songs, which has some sound-sample uploads, plus the lyrics of a few of the songs (which requires copyright-release-permission from the composer and/or syndicate-which-holds-the-composers-copyright).

  p.s. Congratulations to you and Andersneld on getting to mainspace. Nice work!  :-)   VirtualAvi would like some assistance on cleaning up Sapience, if you feel like messing with that one next. Or you can mess with Bob Huff, or one of the other suggestions, or just pick some other poor hapless article from the AfC queue and start fixing it up. p.p.s. Like the allegedly sick Yngvadottir, I too am curious about the unblock sit. You emailed, and then...? Or are you still waiting for somebody to file you an AE-appeal-thingie, per your blue-request, up above? Maybe you are expecting me to unblock you. Well, that's no problem, I'll do it. <huff> <huff> <puff> <puff> WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWIOOOOOOOOHOOHHHHOOOHHHHOOOOOOO!!!!! ( I'll huff... and I'll puff... :-)     okay ya got me, I cannot unblock you. But I can bug somebody, if'n the necessity exists. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 07:55, 14 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi "74",

Thanks again for the clarifications on YouTube & iTunes; makes a lot of sense, and I certainly understand the risk/reward balance falling on the side of excluding such links.

I have updated the "Which way to proceed" section above with the latest information, including details of my email to ArbCom, which is now (finally?) sent. Thanks for your continued concern; really do appreciate it.

I will have a look over the next candidates to see where I think I can offer some assistance. - Ryk72 (talk) 00:59, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Ryk72,

Thanks for accepting to make changes to tone of the article.

I also made the following changes to the article today 1) Added company infobox - the article now needs to get into company category instead of software. Not sure how to change that to leaving it to you 2) Retained product infobox - can we retain this? because this is the only product we intend to have and hence the comapny and product are synonymous to each other. If not, then please feel free to remove it 3) Toned down the non-verifiable portion and tried to make it NPOV 4) Added logo

Please let me know if I this looks good. Also if everything looks good, do I need to Submit it for official review or you can do it and push it to main space?

Thanks to User:74.192.84.101 and you in advance for your help, VirtualAvi (talk) 12:58, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Quick notes. Logo is trademarked, cannot stay in AfC queue, no worries, it can be added back (per fair use) once article is in mainspace. Not sure if dual infoboxen are allowed, ask Gerda_Arendt who loves such things waaay too deeply <grin>, but I suggested the double-infobox-idea since it seems like a good plan (alternative is to keep company-infobox && convert product-infobox into html table and/or wiki-table and/or prose). Categories are a bit tricksy. They are not allowed in AfC queue, to avoid messing up mainspace category-stuff (cat-codebase has a bug methinks). However, it makes sense to *have* mention of the cats, even when *in* the AfC queue... unlike the logo, this is not a one-easy-step thing, and so it is better to have the appropriate cats at the bottom of the AfC-submission, in the apprpriate place. So the trick is this: rather than saying [[Category:Companies founded in 2009 in the country of India which make software]] at the bottom of the page, you instead use a leading colon, and say [[:Category:Companies founded in 2009 in the country of India which make software]] which looks something like Category:Organizations with a bluelink when done properly, and gives a redlink when done improperly. Use the most specific available category(ies), do not use the general/abstract/broad categories simultaneously... CompaniesOfIthaca is best (you don't als need CompaniesOfNY and CompaniesOfUSA and CompaniesOfEarth and Companies ... just the first one is fine, the subcat system will Do The Right Thing beyond those. HTH. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 18:34, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Categories: I think you can you put a leading ":" in, [[:Category:Abc]], then they show but are not active. The things I am not supposed to mention: you can have 2. I don't love them, I find them useful, - that's about the opposite of love. I think that every article would be better if the reader could see right away what the topic, time and location is. I love some of the people who think the same - and miss too many of them. Look at Cremation and enjoy the lead pic, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 19:00, 15 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Gerda loves them. Luuuuvs them. She has pictures of revealing infoboxen on her walls. She carries an infobox in a small locket, next to her heart. She send a dozen red roses to the post office every valentine's day, addressed to "infoboxen, ♥ ♥ ♥, general delivery, wikimedia foundation, san francisco california". p.s. Gerda, you find *me* useful, right? <super big grin> On that note, I gotta run, p'raps for my life. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 01:12, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi VirtualAvi, Hoping that I can help you get the Sapience article approved for inclusion in Wikipedia mainspace. I am only new to Wikipedia myself, so cannot claim to have all the answers for you, but will let you know where I am not sure, and try to call some other people in for a second opinion.

I've had a quick look over the article as it currently stands; at the comments from the previous reviewers; at some of the relevant policies; and at some of the links that "74" found when searching for information on the company. I think that there's a lot that we can do to build a really good article. If / when you have time, and if you haven't already, please have a look over these two Wikipedia documents: WP:BETTER & WP:WORDS. These are about writing good quality articles and going to be what we use to form the basis for making the article look like it really belongs in an Encyclopaedia. Which is what we want, right? :)

Now, for some of the questions that you asked, we already have some definitive answers from "74" & Gerda Arendt, as follows:

• We can't use the logo while the article is in the AfC queue, for some legal reasons that I don't understand; but it can go straight back in once we make it to mainspace - if you could edit to remove the logo, but keep the file handy, that would be good.

• We can have 2 infoboxes, so keep both the Company & Product boxes in there. I am considering that you might want to categorise the company as being in the "Information Technology" or "Software" industries rather than "Services". You probably also want to clean up the title on the product infobox (it doesn't need "Articles for creation/"). And maybe having the website in the second box is redundant.

• As the article is now going to be about the company, not the software, we're also going to need to change the title; which we do by adding a big bold line at the top of the article which says: please make article title == Sapience Analytics or similar (whatever the common name for the company is) - please go ahead and make this addition.

• You can also fix up the categories as described by "74" above - don't forget to add the leading colon inside the brackets.

We also need to be incredibly careful to avoid advertising in the article. This is a big issue in the Wikipedia space - we need to ensure that whatever we say is based on & backed up by reliable sources. But, given the sources that we have available, we can still say a lot.

Looking at the article, I think there's going to be issues with the Features subsection of the Products section no matter how we try to work on it. But, to be honest, the people who are looking for this level of detail, are going to be the people who jump across to the Sapience website; so you can tell them all this there.

I think we're better looking for quotes from the articles listed by "74" which enable us to use the "Just the facts" style as at WP:PEACOCK - e.g. "Dylan was included in Time's 100: The Most Important People of the Century, where he was called "master poet, caustic social critic and intrepid, guiding spirit of the counterculture generation".[refs 1] By the mid-1970s, his songs had been covered by hundreds of other artists.[refs 2]".

I will look through some of the articles looking for things that I think might be appropriate, but suggest that you should do likewise - an easy example would be to mention that Sapience Analytics has been listed as an "IT Company to watch" by the Times of India or the Economic Times (or whatever the specifics from these sources actually say).

Hopefully this is enough for you to carry on with. I will look over the sources in more detail & let you know what else I come up with.

A final note. I am currently blocked from editing Wikipedia outside this Talk page, for reasons which would take too long to go into, so will not be able to make any edits for you.

Hope this is helpful to you. Please feel free to let me know if you have any questions. - Ryk72 (talk) 11:44, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

And a quick call to Hafspajen who might be able to also have a look over the article, or to confirm my thoughts above?

Hi Hafspajen, a pleasure to meet you. "007-4711" speaks highly of you (see note in sections above), and thought you might be able to help on this one. :) I would really appreciate the benefit of your experience, but please feel free to say "no". - Ryk72 (talk) 11:59, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• If you call this speaks highly of me .... well, I don't know: "Hafspajen who justs sits around gazing at imagefiles most of the day " :-) but I can try to help a little. Hafspajen (talk) 13:32, 16 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• Hafspajen has my respect. I mean, if they were to invade Kvenland and bring me the sword of invincibility, then they would get away without with considerably less of the ribbing. Or, I suppose WP:REICHSTAG, now *that* would get my most cordial respect indeed.  :-)   p.s. I hammered down the features-section into a shorter form, which is descriptive without being promotional. Generally, it is better for the features themselves tobe *sourced* aka some reviewer of the software wrote and article and mentioned that the thing is client-server[1] and that it caches logs locally[2] so that you don't have to be always connected to the internet[3]. That proves that each feature is WP:NOTEWORTHY individually, and keeps the prose from being wiped someday by some trigger-happy-deletionist out to challenge anything they see. These *are* more common on company-n-product articles, because of the ever-present risk of spam. See my mention below about the sources; if you do end up going through the WP:RS, to write up the awards & reception section good-n-proper, please make notes when the WP:RS mention a specific feature, so that we can inline-cite the feature-sections. And if this bores you to tears, skip it.  :-)   Not supposed to be drudgery, supposed to be enjoyment-at-improving-the-top-ten-website-in-the-world; whatever floats your boat. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 01:12, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi VirtualAvi, I notice a lot of changes to the Sapience article by yourself, Hafspajen & 74.192.84.101. It's looking a lot better now, I think; and certainly some of the previous issues have been resolved. I notice that there's a note in the article that the "Reception" section needs expansion - so maybe we should look to do something there. My understanding is that we can put information about the awards, "Top 10"'s, "best emerging companies", etc in here; but that it probably needs some verbage around it. I will try to put something together for you to copy into the article; but can you also have a think about what could go here? - Ryk72 (talk) 21:39, 17 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I put that tag in there, when I got lazy.  :-)   If you read the references (the numbered ones which are WP:RS as opposed to the lettered ones which are questionable or WP:ABOUTSELF) there are some reviews of the software, some info about the company, and so on. For cases like Bob Huff, where there are literally thousands of newspaper stories, it is simply impractical to read all the refs. For cases like Sapience, where there are only half a dozen, you can (if you wish) just hammer through them, and summarize each story into a sentence. Note that there are a bunch of stories from the local EconomicTimesNewspaper (or somesuch I forget the exact name) which should not be given undue weight... they are just one publisher, even if they have published a bunch of pieces. Part of the reason that Avi has held back putting in the prose themselves might be that they feel a bit uncertain. I encourage both of you to be WP:BOLD and hammer out some sentences, paying attention to staying neutral and just-the-facts (skimming through WP:NPOV won't hurt either). There is also WP:NCORP and WP:NSOFT. But in general, you can skip reading through all the bazillion rules, and just concentrate on writing an encyclopedia article which describes why the company is WP:NOTEWORTHY to the readership. HTH. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 01:12, 18 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Copying the Sapience article "Reception" section below, to facilitate direct editing of the markup; with a view to having it reviewed & copied back to the article if found good.

cf. WP:SECONDCHANCE

- Ryk72 (talk) 23:42, 21 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Commenting the Sapience article "Reception" section, as editing can now occur in the actual article.

- Ryk72 (talk) 09:33, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Ryk72, Thanks for your help, looks much better. I did the following 1) Replaced "services" with Software under the company infobox 2) Kept website url in product infobox also as it is handy for readers who will scroll down and want to look at the web right from there. Also in future company and product website may become different 3) Added in bold please make article title == Sapience Analytics 4) Removed redundant categories from the bottom, my challenge was that there is not a perfect match for Sapience as it rightly falls under Employee Productivity category (doesn't exist) instead of Time Management

No idea what to do for the comment "This section requires expansion." under Reception section

Shall I go ahead and submit it for evaluation? Or you will be able to do it yourself? VirtualAvi (talk) 11:15, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi VirtualAvi, I agree it's looking better; but cannot claim the credit, which is due to Hafspajen & "74". I see your dilemma with the categories; but am not sure how to go about getting a new one. I also see your points about including the link in both infoboxes; and agree that this would be handy for readers who want to click through.

"74" actually left the "This section requires expansion" comment to let us know that this bit still could use some work; if you see their comment higher up on this page, there's also some high level instructions on what to do. I personally think that we should expand this part before resubmitting for evaluation; and I can spend some time on it in the next few days, if you would like.

I think we would greatly improve our chances of success if we were to do just a little bit more work. But also feel free to submit if you would like.

Hope this helps; and thanks for improving Wikipedia - Ryk72 (talk) 11:50, 22 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Ryk72,

Thanks to you, Hafspajen & 74.192.84.101 for helping me you.

I tried again on the Reception section. Looks like that's it from my side. Request you to make appropriate corrections as needed and submit it with correct title "Sapience Analytics".

Keeping fingers crossed! VirtualAvi (talk) 11:21, 23 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I made a few changes, there are some hanging commas, and the overview-section could still prolly use prose-i-fication, but I suggest you submit it onw. There are 1k articles in the AfC queue, so this takes a bit of time before somebody will see it. There is a little button at the bottom of the two declines, which looks like this:

Resubmit Please note that if the issues are not fixed, the draft will be rejected again.

Click the button, you will be prompted with some annoying message, read it to make sure, then click save. You'll see a big yellow 'waiting for review' box added to the Sapience article, if everything went well. If everything went haywire, you can ask WP:TEAHOUSE or yngvadottir or myself (or any random AfC person you see on the WP:AFC page, to help you get the thing submitted correctly. Once it's in the queue, go ahead and mess with it, if you feel like doing so. I'm pretty sure it will pass as-is, however. Plenty of refs for WP:N aka WP:42, and now satisfies WP:NOTPROMOTION. Danke. 74.192.84.101 (talk) 11:39, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Resubmitted. Thanks for all your help on this one "74", and also to Hafspajen. I feel as though I haven't done much at all on it; but the resubmit suggests it might take 2-3 weeks, so still some time to make improvements. Thanks again. - Ryk72 (talk) 12:02, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Well, well, well. Good for you. Hafspajen (talk) 13:25, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, sometimes three days, but they say weeks, so folks don't get impatient. In fact, there is no.system.whatsoever to the process.  :-)   Well... that's not fair. There is a system. There are chronological categories, and sometimes folks follow them, and other times they don't. I'm one that is in the don't category. Tikuko looks for stuff about animals, and skips most other stuff. WP:REQUIRED applies, as always. Same goes for you, Ryk72, if you get bored with Sapience, feel free to leave VirtualAvi to the queue. Most likely they won't get eaten by zombies. But if you wanna stick around, and get that time-management-app into mainspace, go for it. Now that you are a free agent once again, you can start processing your TBD-list, or just wipe it and go find something completely new to mess with, in the vast jungle of articles. Speaking of which, has somebody explained the watchlist thing to you? Hafspajen knows about them. But disdains to use one, from what I can tell.  :-o   — 74.192.84.101 (talk) 23:35, 26 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

• What do I know, why you, don't have a watchlist? Klick on the stuff Watch https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Watching_pages over the articles, and klick on your watchlist and you will be able to see all changes. Then just keep pushing, until you are a real wikimaniac. Hafspajen (talk) 23:37, 26 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Psst, IPs can't have watchlists. Or get notifications or Echo-thanks. It's discrimination! Ryk, Help:Watching pages, just in case you weren't aware. I have a fairly humongous one: mostly articles I've created, plus articles I've come across that tend to be vandal targets. But some people don't use them. Yngvadottir (talk) 04:44, 28 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

....Oh, I don't despise watchlist - I just made up my mind not to have more than a certain amount of articles on it. If I put sometnig new on it, I take off something else. Hafspajen (talk) 15:55, 30 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hafspajen and I are the same. Every time I want to add something to my watchlist, I force myself to take something off. Leaves me stuck at zero watchlisted pages, of course. Sigh. It is discrimination; there is no technological reason anons cannot have watchlists, just as they have user_talk. Anons cannot participate in most of the wiki-tools, for purely social caste-system reasons. It helps reinforce the stereotype that anons are untouchable vandals. But it's bad for wikipedia. Anyhoo, Ryk, if you reply here, until I get my home-grown-anon-watchlist-scheme up and running, I won't see it. That's not cause I don't like ya, it's because I got no watchlist. Same with all other anons. If you reply to one, leave them a talkback on their user-talkpage, so they see the orangeBarOfDoom. Hafspajen, how big is your watchlist? 3? 6? 9? Ohhhhhh.... burn!  :-)   Adding pictures to your watchlist doesn't count you know, they have to be *articles* you watchlist if you want as much respect as Yngvadottir.  :-P   — 74.192.84.101 (talk) 17:04, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Yngvadottir, Hafspajen & "74",

Firstly, many thanks for the advice on watchlists; eminently useful, and much better than reloading page histories to check for changes as I was initially doing. :)

I see that Sapience Analytics has made it to mainspace, which is pleasing; and entirely due to the efforts of Hafspajen, "74" and VirtualAvi.

Despite our efforts, the page feels a little bit unloved at the moment - with the orphan tag at the top & also with There is currently no way for people to find itthe page unless they search on the exact company name. Do you feel that we might have a case for a disambiguation page for "Sapience"; which currently directs here? Or, failing that a quick italicised "For information on the software company, see Sapience Analytics" line on that page? I can set up the latter with a WP:BOLD edit, but would appreciate a pointer to setting up a disambiguation if that is the more appropriate option.

Many thanks for all your assistance again. Apologies for the slower than ideal responses - too much going on real-o-verse wise.

Hoping to find some time for an update in response to "74" above & also to work on some more musical pages (trombones, scales, etc). - Ryk72 (talk) 15:36, 30 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Updated; orphan tag has been removed: - Ryk72 (talk) 08:07, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Cool, good work. Yes, put a {{for}} template, or something like that, at the Sapience#sapience page-subsection. My hunch is that 'most' readers will not be looking for the software company, so a disambig page is overkill. There is some way to see the number of pageviews, but I'm not sure if there is a way to see the number of pageview for a redirect. Maybe ask at the WP:TEAHOUSE or at WP:VPT if somebody can tell you how many pageviews to Sapience were immediately followed by clicking Sapience Analytics ... then check every couple of months, to see whether it is 9:1 the first (leave redirect as-is), 1:9 in favor of the second (change redirect to point at company), or about even (create disambig page). If this shorthand explanation is not making sense, please say.  :-)   74.192.84.101 (talk) 17:04, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent. Makes absolute sense. Concur with your hunch, and with all that follows on from there. {{for}} template has been added; feel free to edit or amend as appropriate.

I think almost done with Sapience for now; but might just keep an eye on it to see if the dust settles on the logo image - some questions around whether it's ok (free) to use; but I recall you mentioning the possibility of a "fair use" option.

Thanks again for helping us to improve Wikipedia. - Ryk72 (talk) 21:32, 31 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Collapsed (& merged): - Ryk72 (talk) 22:17, 1 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]